And so let the blood letting begin

[Hesi]

Remember the syndicates were going quite well with a number of syndicators like Te Akau, Go Racing  introducing a lot of new people to racing.

Remember Freda, you will always have the thoroughbred knowledge and skills and the contacts.  No one can take those away from you

[mardigras]

8 minutes ago, Hesi said:

Remember the syndicates were going quite well with a number of syndicators like Te Akau, Go Racing  introducing a lot of new people to racing.

The model is not so much for the enthusiast/prestige - but an expensive one that the majority of people can't sustain without some potential return. So a hobby, but constrained by what are high costs - making it still a rich mans hobby. So most can't sustain the hobby without the incentive of some potential reward. When the potential reward is very low, and the costs are still high, many will not continue.

[curious]

1 hour ago, mardigras said:

This won't help our situation, but is there anything stopping a club (such as Foxton), getting out of any alignment with NZTR, and just being a racing club and running club days it organises by itself (no betting). Just horse people, with their horses, riders and run events for ribbons (or donated cups etc). With a feed and a few beers. Top end thoroughbreds may not be part of that of course - but a means to bring like minded people back to grassroots of racing.

I love that idea. I'd play. Kind of a glorified trial day, picnic meeting. Could have equalisator betting. Possibly be dual code. And have some other events like pony, hack races etc.

[mardigras]

1 minute ago, curious said:

I love that idea. I'd play. Kind of a glorified trial day, picnic meeting. Could have equalisator betting. Possibly be dual code. And have some other events like pony, hack races etc.

To me, it's getting to the point where maybe clubs have to go back to the beginnings. And eventually resume things on a bigger scale from there. Yes, if legally allowed to run as an equalisator meeting, even better. Run the entire thing in-house. Club funds it, promotes it, people hopefully turn up and maybe even generate some revenue, and more importantly, interest.

And yes, all those things about adding fun and entertainment. Pony events etc, things to get kids involved. A simple lean to with a can bar. (With a licence or alternative)

From the racing side, a bit like a picnic meeting in Oz. Horses running around with weights like 70kg riders. A few ribbons, maybe a cup race. Throw in a bag of spuds and you're away. And a lot of bloody fun to boot. It's the kind of thing I see small communities like Foxton getting in behind.

Get things going and eventually start a mini-circuit of neighbouring clubs.

[Porky]

1 hour ago, mardigras said:

12 minutes ago, curious said:

I love that idea. I'd play. Kind of a glorified trial day, picnic meeting. Could have equalisator betting. Possibly be dual code. And have some other events like pony, hack races etc.

This won't help our situation, but is there anything stopping a club (such as Foxton), getting out of any alignment with NZTR, and just being a racing club and running club days it organises by itself .. With a feed and a few beers. Top end thoroughbreds may not be part of that of course - but a means to bring like minded people back to grassroots of racing.

On 5/16/2020 at 1:10 AM, Hesi said:

They’ve taken our dates but they’re not getting our land - Avondale buckles in for a fight

By Barry Lichter • 15 May 2020

The Avondale Jockey Club might have been frozen out of the racing calendar for the new season but it won’t be handing over its land to anyone.

“They’re not getting it,” vice president Jan Skinner said when asked what the club planned to do in the wake of the Racing Industry Transition Agency’s snub.

“We’d rather donate the land to the local Plunket Society than see it sold.”

Under the recommendations of the Messara report, Avondale was one of the main tracks earmarked for sale given its value 

It and a number of other racecourses formed a major part of the Messara plan to sell targeted assets and use the proceeds to revitalise the ailing industry....Also denied galloping dates next season are Te Teko, Te Awamutu, Gisborne, Wairoa, Waipukurau, Waterlea, Motukarara, Waikouaiti and Omakau.

Skinner said Avondale was determined to continue to offer a range of sporting, cultural and recreational activities to support the Avondale and West Auckland communities.

The Avondale Sunday market has been operating for 40 years.“We own the land but Avondale has always been a community asset. The infield is used as a sports field by the locals 

The Avondale Sunday market was also an integral part of the community and had been operating on the grounds for nearly 40 years. New Zealand’s largest one-day market, with a strong Asian and Polynesian influence, it attracts up to 20,000 visitors in a day, according to the club’s website.

Skinner, whose father Harry trained on the course in 1949, has been an administrator at the club for 31 years and says she’d rather see it turned into a grass harness racing track than lost in a land grab by people looking for some quick money to replace millions squandered over years of mismanagement.

 

 

[mardigras]

One thing not mentioned by Avondale Porky, was running race meetings themselves (as a sporting option). Call them oncourse only, picnic, whatever.

[Hesi]

Having thought about it, this stance of Avondale's, is an act of vengeance, justified or not.

I understand, from reading other posts, that they have refused to even get around the table with Ellerslie or Counties, in view of the Messara Report, that they have their licence withdrawn 20/21.  This may or may not be right.

To quote Confucius, and also prompted by Nerula's post elsewhere

Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.”

 

[mardigras]

3 minutes ago, Hesi said:

Having thought about it, this stance of Avondale's, is an act of vengeance, justified or not.

I understand, from reading other posts, that they have refused to even get around the table with Ellerslie or Counties, in view of the Messara Report, that they have their licence withdrawn 20/21.  This may or may not be right.

To quote Confucius, and also prompted by Nerula's post elsewhere

Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.”

 

How would talking to others help - when they don't have a current race date? (to even have a discussion with others about where to run that race meeting). Or have they been granted race dates?

Edited May 18, 2020 by mardigras

[Hesi]

This has been ongoing since Messara, with dates not due to be withdrawn until 20/21.

With 200 mil plus potentially available, they would have had a lot of negotiating power in any new initiatives put on the table

[mardigras]

4 minutes ago, Hesi said:

This has been ongoing since Messara, with dates not due to be withdrawn until 20/21.

With 200 mil plus potentially available, they would have had a lot of negotiating power in any new initiatives put on the table

I think the decision should be an economic one combined with a community focus (since that is what the club grew from). There isn't a lot economically to recommend working with ARC (given the overall state of the industry). Would it be short sighted to give up their community facility (plus many other community based factors) in order to follow a reckless path in the hope it turns the corner?

[Porky]

We all know through reading / word of mouth ... less courses / more race dates per course...but less race days over-all.

Staff cuts , less Stakes initially , proposed outsourcing of TAB (to save the industry that was nearly financially fucked before budget handout)

Freda I feel for ya ! ...(realise you would of considered all these options) (on behalf of others or yourself) ...Foaling/weaning/educating/syndicating

As Hesi said...Te Akau has...big syndicates ( Melody Belle ,springs to mind).....Good luck anyway.. I.don,t know the answer

and Hesi 200 mil from Avondale, would have been swallowed up quick by wages, (fuck, i wished I was on a tenth of some of them)

I,m not an Aucklander BUT have been to the Avondale Cup a few times years back.

As Mardy says above , stop clutching at straws, It would be like the Council selling the "Town Clock".    

 

[curious]

55 minutes ago, mardigras said:

One thing not mentioned by Avondale Porky, was running race meetings themselves (as a sporting option). Call them oncourse only, picnic, whatever.

That's a real option in my view for not only Avondale but other clubs that are registered and denied a licence. To avoid the mandatory dissolution in the proposed legislation they only have to conduct a race meeting annually under the rules (with betting, but that could be equalisator). Such a meeting at the likes of Marlborough, Te Teko, Wairoa etc. would maintain racing and interest in those regions. I'm sure they would be well supported. I'd be delighted to take one say to Wairoa for a few days and go round for a few crayfish. Still meets the primary object in most of their constitutions.

Edited May 18, 2020 by curious

[Midnight Caller]

I worry for the majority of  trainers who are going to lose those 100/50/20% owners in the next 6/12 months,they are going to be hard to lure back in the near future. Syndicates maybe the hole filler, but they would have to be large numbered syndicates with costings of $100 /$200 pm.Trainers trying to get as many involved and on course.

I vaguely  remember back in March on another  thread (covid thread maybe?)saying something about two tier racing, and whether there was a way around the racing licence laws.Is there a way? On-course only,token/chip betting(cash in on the way out).Clubs in the break away tier putting  together racing  circuits. Top tier racing 3 days a week.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Midnight Caller

[mardigras]

10 minutes ago, Midnight Caller said:

I worry for the majority of  trainers who are going to lose those 100/50/20% owners in the next 6/12 months,they are going to be hard to lure back in the near future. Syndicates maybe the hole filler, but they would have to be large numbered syndicates with costings of $100 /$200 pm.Trainers trying to get as many involved and on course.

I vaguely  remember back in March on another  thread (covid thread maybe?)saying something about two tier racing, and whether there was a way around the racing licence laws.Is there a way? On-course only,token/chip betting(cash in on the way out).Clubs in the break away tier putting  together racing  circuits. Top tier racing 3 days a week.

You could have the picnic circuit and the TAB circuit. Eventually, many in the TAB circuit are going to want to join the picnic circuit.

[Midnight Caller]

4 minutes ago, mardigras said:

You could have the picnic circuit and the TAB circuit. Eventually, many in the TAB circuit are going to want to join the picnic circuit.

Thanks Mardi, with having a two tier racing system, could they then change the licensing laws to accommodate and allow the second tier clubs to be self sufficient within their tier?

[mardigras]

1 minute ago, Midnight Caller said:

Thanks Mardi, with having a two tier racing system, could they then change the licensing laws to accommodate and allow the second tier clubs to be self sufficient within their tier?

Probably better answered by club people like curious. I'm not sure of the rules around clubs and societies - but maybe they start up a breakaway organisation as a national body - say NZPR, NZ picnic racing (multi code etc). That's even if you need a national body. But you may want some consistencies around running your picnic meetings etc. 

Maybe they could then be seen as a National Sporting Organisation and seek to have betting via whatever operators, and take fees based on the betting. Almost as a rival to NZTR and their clubs. 🙂 

[Maximus]

I have some sympathy for AJC's predicament, but they are largely responsible for their own mess, because FOR DECADES they have failed to address the 'elephant in their room' - the pathetic facilities for Members and the race-going public. Truth is, the Auckland population does not justify three racecourses so close to each other: if AJC had invested in their future by building a new grandstand in the 1990s ...

I say their best solution is to merge with ARC, with guraranteed Membership rights in perpetuity for current AJC and ARC members, and form a new organisation with real $$$ clout for the 21st century.

[Hesi]

I looked at it quite simply

On one side

Racing is in the shyte financially

Avondale could liquidate their assets and generate 200-300 million

Very unlikely the land grab legislation could get through, Bill of Rights etc

Avondale are in the business of thoroughbred racing(Avondale Jockey Club)

Avondale are therefore able to drive a hard bargain

A world class mega racing complex in the Auckland region(Avondale, Ellerslie and Counties) encompassing all the other aspects that make it a 365 day operation, would secure the future of racing in the north, also if Waikato undertook a similar initiative.

Racecourses in the middle of a city are not ideal, because of the traffic issues, and also the opportunity to expand into events, is complicated by the urban situation(look at Eden Park)

On the other side

Avondale sell, and the 200-300 mil is effectively lost to racing, because of bitterness

What is better......no contest I thought

[curious]

Completely disagree. That asset is the club's and Avondale community's. They of course want to run race meetings. That IS the primary objective in their constitution. No mention of racing in their dissolution clause though. They may be better to conduct meetings at the Waikato Greenfields complex than in Auckland. That's where the horses are. Since they now have no raceday licence it's not much point merging with or planning to race at another Auckland venue or anywhere for that matter.

[mardigras]

Yes, if Avondale had a race date and weren't allowed to race at the Avondale track, they might as well see if Foxton can run it - and do a road trip 🙂 

[brown fox]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Completely disagree. That asset is the club's and Avondale community's. They of course want to run race meetings. That IS the primary objective in their constitution. No mention of racing in their dissolution clause though. They may be better to conduct meetings at the Waikato Greenfields complex than in Auckland. That's where the horses are. Since they now have no raceday licence it's not much point merging with or planning to race at another Auckland venue or anywhere for that matter.

Ellerslie can look after itself.Take money and racedates to Waikato😁

[Hesi]

53 minutes ago, brown fox said:

Ellerslie can look after itself.Take money and racedates to Waikato😁

That's a good idea, the Avondale folk seem to be very bitter towards the Ellerslie folk

200-300 mil gets you a lot of say, and a lot of former set in stone decisions changed

The people at RITA/NZTR, should in all seriousness have realised they were never going to get that money off Avondale, even with a HUGE fight, so they should have all sat down together and tried to work something out.  I think Saundry was along this line, but didn't seem to get anywhere

Otherwise, as I said that huge chunk of money is l lost to racing

[curious]

58 minutes ago, Hesi said:

That's a good idea, the Avondale folk seem to be very bitter towards the Ellerslie folk

200-300 mil gets you a lot of say, and a lot of former set in stone decisions changed

The people at RITA/NZTR, should in all seriousness have realised they were never going to get that money off Avondale, even with a HUGE fight, so they should have all sat down together and tried to work something out.  I think Saundry was along this line, but didn't seem to get anywhere

Otherwise, as I said that huge chunk of money is l lost to racing

It's not lost to racing. It does not belong to racing in the first place. It belongs to the AJC and Avondale community.

[Hesi]

It belongs to the AJC, who are part of the racing industry

[Porky]

Can Avondale and the other courses denied dates at this stage operate equalisator meetings and keep the community involvement ?...

Alongside NZTR,s new Calender and revised stakes and plans ? (that will keep all happy)...Excellent discussion above

No ... I expect the answer to be ...thats been the shit-fight for ages ...nothings changed.