Karrots Weekly Midweek Harness Round Up

[Enteebee]

1 hour ago, Globederby19 said:

So is Dark Horses first start, absolutely phenomenal and I thought I was watching a Sir Castleton finish.   80 mtrs behind at one stage and mowed them down in the straight. Interesting to see another of our horses Cuddly Jess in that race , above.

Can you find Dark Horses first race Karrots, well worth a watch. 

it was a mistake - the horse was Cuddly Trouble - corrected after that one call - and yes Dark Horse was impressive in that win

 

[Enteebee]

4 hours ago, Lightning Blue said:

G'Day Karrots, robert, NZ.

Sorry if I have missed something. (pretty big week Aus gallops this week)  BUT Why are Sundees Son and Muscle Mountain NOT in the NZ trotting FFA at 100k ????

Might be answered there already but i missed it. $100,000 races don't go everyday , and the 2 best trotters in the Nation missing ??? what is going on ?

many trainers been lobbying for them to swap the FFA and the Dominion - Robert Dunn spoke against it at one of the industry meetings and they listened to him and his owner on the Board.  So a bloody stupid decision and they deserve a 6 horse field when the double acceptors scratch.

 

[Double R]

7 minutes ago, Enteebee said:

many trainers been lobbying for them to swap the FFA and the Dominion - Robert Dunn spoke against it at one of the industry meetings and they listened to him and his owner on the Board.  So a bloody stupid decision and they deserve a 6 horse field when the double acceptors scratch.

 

Hi Neil,

I also think at one stage through the 80's , the Dominion was raced on the last night.

Cheers.

Robert.

[karrotsishere]

3 hours ago, Globederby19 said:

So is Dark Horses first start, absolutely phenomenal and I thought I was watching a Sir Castleton finish.   80 mtrs behind at one stage and mowed them down in the straight. Interesting to see another of our horses Cuddly Jess in that race , above.

Can you find Dark Horses first race Karrots, well worth a watch. 

Ill take a look tomorrow. You could post a link as another option 😁

What I liked about 1st MM race win as pointed out by Enteebee, was the commentary thought was a crack up, with 200 metres to go 😅

Edited November 4, 2021 by karrotsishere

[Enteebee]

1 hour ago, Double R said:

Hi Neil,

I also think at one stage through the 80's , the Dominion was raced on the last night.

Cheers.

Robert.

I'm sure you are right - the same night as the Allan Matson FFA

 

[Globederby19]

If the horse had not of been plagued with quarter cracks in his hooves he may have achieved a hell of a lot more. I can remember Cecile Devine cursing the horse when he used to pig root at the start, which could be heard all around the course. Funny as

Edited November 4, 2021 by Globederby19

[Double R]

8 minutes ago, Globederby19 said:

If the horse had not of been plagued with quarter cracks in his hooves he may have achieved a hell of a lot more. I can remember Cecile Devine cursing the horse when he used to pig root at the start, which could be heard all around the course. Funny as

Spine tingling stuff Rees.

[karrotsishere]

Ok so Globe, just watched Dark Horses 1st win. Nice win also 👍😃

Also just watched the video 1981 FFA - LM. Things I noted from the video. Was a horse called Gammalite. When he took off from the rear it was like the driver was dry humping the air. Then sitting parked like that for so long to run 2nd. BUT what I noticed the most & I completely understand why they have changed the whip rule in this day & age. IS the use of the WHIP in the home straight on Gammalite. Gee that is a bad look. Looked terrible. Cringe. Most on here maybe used to this as it was once a time normal. Give you tip. Not good look in 2021 going into 2022. Was on the fence when that whip rule came in, BUT agree with it now AFTER viewing this video.

[Dancing Show]

Not so used to it Karrots, I've never liked.   In gallops the same thing when I see excessive whip use.   Some say they mostly hit the sulky but I've seen a good few horses come back with pretty sore looking rear ends.     One of the more recent examples in a big race (and during Cup Week) for overuse is Arden Rooney.   It's interesting watching the whip use of the other drivers in comparison.   I cringed watching this live and now I avoid watching it.

 

 

[karrotsishere]

Yip Dancing. The other site many were defending the old rule. I was on the fence as mentioned. I hadn't really seen evidence of this other rule really at its worst. Was thinking if that last 100 metres of the Lord M race was to be posted on social media e.g. Facebook or Instagram etc & shown to ONLY under 12 years & also any age female with NO interest in racing or horses, I would bet $100 that the majority would dislike it. (and while not putting the boot into the driver as the driver was allowed to do this at that time). The comments I would suggest would be things like - dreadful, uncivilised, repulsive, horrible, poor horse, sad, maybe even stop racing, this is a disgrace etc etc. The bottom line is that females represent 1/2 world population & under 12 are the future of the world. 

Ill check out this video you posted tonight. Thanks for sharing. 

[karrotsishere]

Ok. Just watched that vid you shared Dancing. For me its not as bad the other one. Due to the range of arm movement. The other 1 was the arm was right back behind the head so seems like a whole lot of force gone into each strike from the shoulder. However with the vid you showed, many more times the strikes, so yes can see what you mean. Anyway if we both have noticed these 2 for each of us as stand outs, imagine who others would too. So anyway said my peace on it so moving on. 

Next weeks mid-week up date will be out Monday morning. Have fantastic set of Q & A with DR - Double R. Nearly shed a tear while reading, then broke into a smile. 

If you missed the Q & A with Enteebee, go back a few posts page 2, to check it out worth a read. And look forward to sharing Double R's Q & A early next week. 

[Lightning Blue]

15 hours ago, karrotsishere said:

Ok. Just watched that vid you shared Dancing. For me its not as bad the other one. Due to the range of arm movement.

 

21 hours ago, Dancing Show said:

h pretty sore looking rear ends.     One of the more recent examples in a big race (and during Cup Week) for overuse is Arden Rooney. 

Hi Karrots and Maria, I think your concern for the horse is a good thing. The methods used to keep a large animal thundering forward , at it's greatest rate possible while maintaining 'Gait' is not an easy one.

The 2 examples you have chosen are quite 'mild ' IMO. Neville Clarke ( Gammalite) is as skinny as a beanpole , and Kerryn Manning (Arden Rooney)  is size of a grasshopper. She has driven over 4000 winners and knows what she is doing. Neither would do anything to harm a horse in any way. They just have very exaggerated arm movements . Kerryn had an Interdominion winner SMOLDA and Mark Purdon coming at her. I'd be jumping around in the sulky too lol.........

I DON"T condone Whip use 'abuse' in any way . But I can tell you there are FAR worse cases than the 2 videos you guys have here. BIG 90-110 kg men that could actually 'use a whip' I can think of 20 that I drove against in Nz and Oz that make Neville and Kerryn look powder-puff's. (Neville's arch-rival Vinnie Knight being one)

Steps have been made for a long time to improve horse welfare, and many (all) of these 90-110 drivers that could really hit and mark a horse, have fallen by the wayside after years of fines (and several banned ) for months in the 1990's . I am happy to say I didn't ever get fine /ban though personally. Today it's Just a bunch of skinny kids in most Oz harness tracks So All good. 

[Dancing Show]

I'm sure there are worse cases out there LB, and in some cases tapping is needed to keep a horse mindful, but just because someone's driven a lot of winners it doesn't absolve them of what they do in any given situation, similar to Group 1 winning jockeys that get pinged for excessive whip action.      Manning got fined for that and so she should have.  Just because you have another horse coming at you it doesn't give the driver the right to excessively thrash a horse to try to get themselves or the owners a win when the horse has nowhere to go to get away from it but try to push itself more and more, to escape it - she got carried away for her own personal reasons, and the horse bore the brunt of it, so in this case we'll have to agree to disagree 🙂 

[Lightning Blue]

4 minutes ago, Dancing Show said:

excessively thrash a horse to try to get themselves or the owners a win when the horse has nowhere to go to get away from it but try to push itself more and more, to escape it - she got carried away for her own personal reasons, and the horse bore the brunt of it, so in this case we'll have to agree to disagree

Yes no problem. The big races have a way of showing up flaws , there are a million eyes are on them.

The Melbourne Cup had many jockeys fined past few years and long suspensions. As the kiwi jockey Michael Walker said after getting fined a second time "The whip rules go out the window , when you're trying to win the big race"

Yes no doubt Kerryn Manning's own 'personal reasons' were , She was trying to Win the race (Nz Cup Group 1)  too. 

[Dancing Show]

4 minutes ago, Lightning Blue said:

The Melbourne Cup had many jockeys fined past few years and long suspensions. As the kiwi jockey Michael Walker said after getting fined a second time "The whip rules go out the window , when you're trying to win the big race"

Yes no doubt Kerryn Manning's own 'personal reasons' were , She was trying to Win the race (Nz Cup Group 1)  too. 

Which is the very basis of the animal welfare claim and the call for tighter restrictions and for "humans" to be more accountable.  The welfare of the animal is put second behind what "humans" decide is more important to themselves.

[Double R]

What we do know now, well at least in N.Z. whip rules in Harness racing have changed, and those over vigorous days are gone. The past can not be changed, but the future can be, and thankful now it has been addressed.

[Lightning Blue]

2 minutes ago, Dancing Show said:

Which is the very basis of the animal welfare claim and the call for tighter restrictions and for "humans" to be more accountable.  The welfare of the animal is put second behind what "humans" decide is more important to themselves.

True. Every human has the right to decide what is important to themselves. In great developed countries like Aus and NZ we are priviliged to enjoy the great Entertainment that horse racing (and for some dog racing) has provided.

Horse Welfare has always been paramount since time began. Horses (and greyhounds) love to run , so human intervention has gathered that 'energy' and we see the results daily.  great racing . we have trained horses to pull a plough, muster cattle, run the mail, pull carraiges, even calvary charge lol.... and 100 other things. most of those tasks involving some whip use too, to generate the needed speed of activity. Racing is just one of them. of course we are accountable.

ALL these horses are treated well and better than what people treat each other generally. We Love them , when we 'work with them' and they have FAR greater care and attention when In work , than in the wild (like brumbies) or paddock. 

 

[karrotsishere]

Thought this might turn into a heated debate 😬 Anyway just a heads up, that most likely the Q & A from the Karrots midweekly round up will have its own thread likely named Q & A & prob pinned to the top. Will try to get your Q & A moved to it Enteebee. 

So that it doesn't get lost in amongst other stuff on this thread. Petes idea 😄

Edited November 5, 2021 by karrotsishere

[Double R]

18 minutes ago, Dancing Show said:

Which is the very basis of the animal welfare claim and the call for tighter restrictions and for "humans" to be more accountable.  The welfare of the animal is put second behind what "humans" decide is more important to themselves.

Something else that surprised me in the last month or so, albeit in the thoroughbred code, was a leading rider wearing spurs. I will take note today if he is wearing them.

[Dancing Show]

18 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

Thought this might turn into a heated debate 😬

All good Karrots, it's not a heated debate just a discussion which is how it should be 🙂 

[Lightning Blue]

15 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

Thought this might turn into a heated debate 😬 Anyway just a heads up, that most likely the Q & A from the Karrots midweekly round up will have its own thread likely named Q & A & prob pinned to the top. Will try to get your Q & A moved to it Enteebee. 

So that it doesn't get lost in amongst other stuff on this thread. Petes idea 😄

sorry Karrots , didn't mean to muck up the thread. You and dancing Show were getting a little upset over a couple of videos there yesterday, and thought I could 'ease' your minds a little , that it wasn't as bad as it looked.

I May have failed a little , but gave it a shot , which I am happy with.

And Double R has just said some Great stuff above to sum it up. 

 

[karrotsishere]

19 minutes ago, Double R said:

Something else that surprised me in the last month or so, albeit in the thoroughbred code, was a leading rider wearing spurs. I will take note today if he is wearing them.

What? Spurs? Have to be joking? Didn't think that was allowed? What country? Do you have a pic?

[karrotsishere]

Just now, Lightning Blue said:

sorry Karrots , didn't mean to muck up the thread. You and dancing Show were getting a little upset over a couple of videos there yesterday, and thought I could 'ease' your minds a little , that it wasn't as bad as it looked.

I May have failed a little , but gave it a shot , which I am happy with.

And Double R has just said some Great stuff above to sum it up. 

 

Nah all good Lightning. You have not mucked up thread at all. Pete actually suggested the Q & A have its own thread to me yesterday. Which after thinking about it agree. Nothing to do with this discussion today. So no worries. 

[Dancing Show]

18 minutes ago, Double R said:

Something else that surprised me in the last month or so, albeit in the thoroughbred code, was a leading rider wearing spurs. I will take note today if he is wearing them.

Interesting.  I can remember seeing a jockey in the past with a metal loop around the heel of their boots, not sure if this is similar to what you saw Robert?   Didn't realise they were approved gear.   They'd have to take it into consideration when weighing out/in too.

[Double R]

40 minutes ago, Double R said:

What we do know now, well at least in N.Z. whip rules in Harness racing have changed, and those over vigorous days are gone. The past can not be changed, but the future can be, and thankful now it has been addressed.

From last nights Stipes report from Alexandra Park.

James Stormont driving Forever A Dancer in race 5.

[Rule 869(2) Whip & Rein Regs] - Using whip free of the rein and with more than a wrist flicking motion. Fined $450.