Bensons Mate and Cam Jones

[karrotsishere]

Found it odd to, hence mentioned it on another thread, as I had selected it for a fun pick at Winton on Addys thread. Saying it got beat by a horse back from a spell that in 2 starts sense has zero form. Took a look at the times and noted the last 400 metres after Double R's response which sounded reasonable and logical. However stats here show that he can run home faster than the rate he ran home yesterday. He has run home in 27.3 off a similar slower pace.

Here are the stats as per his last 5 races & in order. 

Mile Rate: 1-59.6 Last 800m: 55.9 Last 400m: 27.8 in lead 2400m 2nd 

Mile Rate: 1-57.3 Last 800m: 57.7 Last 400m: 28.7 in lead 2400m 1st by 7 1/2 lengths

 

This race was hitting a knee as per stripes report and is best suited to bigger tracks 'also ran'.

Mile Rate: 1-58.2 Last 800m: 56.2 Last 400m: 27.6 in lead 1980m 1st

 

Mile Rate: 1-59.8 Last 800m: 56.6 Last 400m: 27.3 in lead 1980m 1st

Edited November 18, 2021 by karrotsishere

[Lightning Blue]

2 hours ago, karrotsishere said:

Found it odd to, hence mentioned it on another thread, as I had selected it for a fun pick at Winton on Addys thread. Saying it got beat by a horse back from a spell that in 2 starts sense has zero form. Took a look at the times and noted the last 400 metres after Double R's response which sounded reasonable and logical. However stats here show that he can run home faster than the rate he ran home yesterday. He has run home in 27.3 off a similar slower pace.

Here are the stats as per his last 5 races & in order. 

Mile Rate: 1-59.6 Last 800m: 55.9 Last 400m: 27.8 in lead 2400m 2nd 

Mile Rate: 1-57.3 Last 800m: 57.7 Last 400m: 28.7 in lead 2400m 1st by 7 1/2 lengths

 

This race was hitting a knee as per stripes report and is best suited to bigger tracks 'also ran'.

Mile Rate: 1-58.2 Last 800m: 56.2 Last 400m: 27.6 in lead 1980m 1st

 

Mile Rate: 1-59.8 Last 800m: 56.6 Last 400m: 27.3 in lead 1980m 1st

BENSON Showing plenty of dash there Karrots!!! , a very handy prospect going forward. Will be great to see another mixing it with the 'Diamonds' and the 'Triangles'. and 'Stars' will be shooting again soon too, I believe . Nat to be back on a training ticket.

[Double R]

2 hours ago, karrotsishere said:

Found it odd to, hence mentioned it on another thread, as I had selected it for a fun pick at Winton on Addys thread. Saying it got beat by a horse back from a spell that in 2 starts sense has zero form. Took a look at the times and noted the last 400 metres after Double R's response which sounded reasonable and logical. However stats here show that he can run home faster than the rate he ran home yesterday. He has run home in 27.3 off a similar slower pace.

Here are the stats as per his last 5 races & in order. 

Mile Rate: 1-59.6 Last 800m: 55.9 Last 400m: 27.8 in lead 2400m 2nd 

Mile Rate: 1-57.3 Last 800m: 57.7 Last 400m: 28.7 in lead 2400m 1st by 7 1/2 lengths

 

This race was hitting a knee as per stripes report and is best suited to bigger tracks 'also ran'.

Mile Rate: 1-58.2 Last 800m: 56.2 Last 400m: 27.6 in lead 1980m 1st

 

Mile Rate: 1-59.8 Last 800m: 56.6 Last 400m: 27.3 in lead 1980m 1st

It is great to be able to share the knowledge gained over the years, and share them on here.

The second last start, when we won , it was a much more solidly run race, in that the pace was constant throughout, which meant that it is more taxing on all horses stamina, of which many were unable to cope. Yesterdays race  was run at a more sedate pace, dictated by the driver in front, until the last 800 metres, and then they went like the clappers.

[Rusty]

I'm picking Bensons Mate is perhaps missing the fresh air of Woodend Beach a just a smidgen. 

Afterall, horses can be funny like that 😉

[karrotsishere]

What about this one?

Mile Rate: 1-59.8 Last 800m: 56.6 Last 400m: 27.3 in lead 1980m 1st

Now we are just picking on the horse lol. (He could of just had an off day which is normal with living things in all sport, animal and human. Noted too he has been racing Southern not at Addington. As a comparison Sugar Me never went to Winton to race. So maybe he isn't of the great ability that we had thought ... you know what I mean ? (just a thought).

[Double R]

38 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

What about this one?

Mile Rate: 1-59.8 Last 800m: 56.6 Last 400m: 27.3 in lead 1980m 1st

Now we are just picking on the horse lol. (He could of just had an off day which is normal with living things in all sport, animal and human. Noted too he has been racing Southern not at Addington. As a comparison Sugar Me never went to Winton to race. So maybe he isn't of the great ability that we had thought ... you know what I mean ? (just a thought).

The 1.59.8 mile rate, in general, indicates it is slowly run race, so the last half and quarter is entitled to be quick.

Another thing to consider is the weather conditions. It maybe fine, but be windy.

It is great you are asking these questions Karrots, and it is wonderful to be able to give you some guidance.

[Double R]

55 minutes ago, Rusty said:

I'm picking Bensons Mate is perhaps missing the fresh air of Woodend Beach a just a smidgen. 

Afterall, horses can be funny like that 😉

Now, now, Rusty.

[karrotsishere]

23 minutes ago, Double R said:

The 1.59.8 mile rate, in general, indicates it is slowly run race, so the last half and quarter is entitled to be quick.

Another thing to consider is the weather conditions. It maybe fine, but be windy.

It is great you are asking these questions Karrots, and it is wonderful to be able to give you some guidance.

Haha as long as it doesn't come across too much as know all ha.

That is the point. It equates to the same type of race that he ran in a slow race as per yesterday. However he was not able to quicken this time last 400 as he did on the case I pointed out as an example. Anyway Iv gotta run. Good luck for tonight re Missle 😃 Hope he goes well for you 👍

[Double R]

3 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

Haha as long as it doesn't come across too much as know all ha.

That is the point. It equates to the same type of race that he ran in a slow race as per yesterday. However he was not able to quicken this time last 400 as he did on the case I pointed out as an example. Anyway Iv gotta run. Good luck for tonight re Missle 😃 Hope he goes well for you 👍

Of course you come across as a know all Karrots. HaHa. No, you don't. I would class you as a wanting to know.

By the time you have asked any questions that we are wanting to know, you will be like me, be more informed on reading a race, and be aware of more variables that come into racing.

Thanks Karrots for your good wishes for tonight.

[karrotsishere]

Just watched replay of his race today. He finished 3rd. Was the fav. What are peeps thoughts on his performance? compared to his performance not long ago when he was driven the SAME, yet that day he kept going. Today over shorter distance a mile & was all out clearly struggling with approx 100 metes to go. 

1609m Mile Rate: 1-54.9 Last 800m: 60.0 Last 400m: 30.4

[Rusty]

6 hours ago, karrotsishere said:

What are peeps thoughts on his performance?

Good analysis Karrots.

And good on you for asking the question. 

Unfortunately in Jacindastan, often people are unable to share their true thoughts and opinions without  receiving repercussions for doing so.

I don't wish to publicly share my thoughts on the matter, sorry Karrots, but by saying nothing, it actually says more, than saying something, in this case. 

[Lightning Blue]

7 hours ago, karrotsishere said:

He finished 3rd. Was the fav. What are peeps thoughts on his performance? compared to his performance not long ago

Alright IMO. I would think that 1.55 is still considered a fast mile. bit slow the last bit I spose. Makes you look who beat him.

2nd placegetter today with Sam Ottley, has won 2 of past 3 starts,  so obviously is no slug.

The winner today looks a very smart type. KEEP ON DREAMING. Winning races by big margins in his first prep early in year, before an unplaced GROUP 2 feature race run behind REGAZZO MACH,  in May at Invercargill.

Incidently ,  REGAZZO MACH had his first Australian run this week on Monday , Winning by many lengths in the wild West WA in 1.56.   Could be Anything that horse. superstar in the making is a possibility.

ANOTHER real tragedy of NZ losing another Tip Top horse for the benefit of Australia. 

[karrotsishere]

On 11/15/2021 at 7:27 AM, Rusty said:

I should also add: 

1. The removable deafeners were not removed as the driver said he felt he had the field covered. 

2. The stipes questioned Cam Jones on the horses improved performance. He replied by saying the horse was unsuited on the tight turning track previously, and had drawn benefit on a larger track today. 

3. In my opinion based on that Winton run, Bensons Mate is either going straight to Open Class, and/or will be sold to Menangle very soon. 

Ok thanks Rusty for your most recent post to explain. Do you still think this? Point 3? Should be a simple yes or no 😄

On 11/19/2021 at 6:59 AM, Double R said:

My feeling was the race was run to slow, and just got out finished by the horse in the trial. I would also add, it is not a criticism of the drive, as you always want to give the horse the easiest run you can, and sometimes it doesn't work out.

 

On 11/19/2021 at 7:21 AM, Double R said:

Probably another description that you and I know would be, driven too pretty.

What are your thought now DR, wasn't driven too pretty yesterday. But failed to recapture that same form when driven the same. 

Lightning - re competition. For me, Im looking at the track e.g. its Winton, so Winton competition & times. Very slow last 400 30. something over a mile. 

Im asking the question as I find it unusual. As Rusty had said point 3, straight to open class or Menangle very soon. DR did point out yesterday referring to kamikaze driving that if a horse can do that & still win, then it is quite special. I agree. Therefore had kind of put Bensons Mate potentially in that category to a degree. But based off his past 2 races both at Winton, he simply isn't living up to it. Maybe a 1 hit wonder? 

[Double R]

12 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

Ok thanks Rusty for your most recent post to explain. Do you still think this? Point 3? Should be a simple yes or no 😄

 

What are your thought now DR, wasn't driven too pretty yesterday. But failed to recapture that same form when driven the same. 

Lightning - re competition. For me, Im looking at the track e.g. its Winton, so Winton competition & times. Very slow last 400 30. something over a mile. 

Im asking the question as I find it unusual. As Rusty had said point 3, straight to open class or Menangle very soon. DR did point out yesterday referring to kamikaze driving that if a horse can do that & still win, then it is quite special. I agree. Therefore had kind of put Bensons Mate potentially in that category to a degree. But based off his past 2 races both at Winton, he simply isn't living up to it. Maybe a 1 hit wonder? 

Hi Karrots.

Everyone assessment of a horses run can be different. We can all see horses have wins like he did three starts ago, and make you think this is an above average horse, but have to be wary of the class of the opposition. Yesterdays run showed he is a horse that will win more races, but I wouldn't consider him open class material.

I thought yesterday's run was phenomenal really. Three wide early, then paced roughly when searching for the lead, reached the lead at the 800 metres, and keep the pressure on, and only got run down in the last 50 metres. I couldn't have asked for more, given they ran the first half in 55 seconds.

Interestingly, the 2 year olds ran an overall time about a second faster.

[Rusty]

53 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

Ok thanks Rusty for your most recent post to explain. Do you still think this? Point 3? Should be a simple yes or no 😄

Yes.

"Based on that Winton run." 

[karrotsishere]

On 11/14/2021 at 7:42 PM, Lightning Blue said:

That is one strange progressive horse.......

Think will agree with Lightning initial assessment as above. 

Of note both races were pretty much same grade. Eg won that this thread was started up about was Up to R69. Race yesterday was Up to R70. Both races same track at Winton.

Edited December 9, 2021 by karrotsishere

[Happy Sunrise]

2 hours ago, karrotsishere said:

3. In my opinion based on that Winton run, Bensons Mate is either going straight to Open Class, and/or will be sold to Menangle very soon. 

You would have to be very brave to buy it.

[Double R]

13 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

Think will agree with Lightning initial assessment as above. 

Of note both races were pretty much same grade. Eg won that this thread was started up about was Up to R69. Race yesterday was Up to R70. Both races same track at Winton.

Something else to note about times.

Of all the tracks in New Zealand, both Winton and Ashburton have always been regarded as the quickest, because they are bigger tracks, and horses need to negotiate one less bend over any given distance. For example, one 1609 metres at Auckland and Cambridge they go around three bends, and Winton and Ashburton only two.

For me, ratings are just that, and have little bearing on the class of horse in the race. Some horses will always stay at their level, but other horses will be on their way through, and race against a potential lesser opposition, as there continue their progress to where they will end up.

Another consideration is the weather conditions. Yes, it might look sunny, but there could be wind. A lot of variables that come into race to be considered.

It is like any sport, just because you have beaten an opponent or team last time you met, has no bearing on what might happen this time. A saying I like, "they don't pay out on what history says you should do, you have actually got to go out and do it on the field or track".

 

[karrotsishere]

Was just looking at TAB for tonight Alex & Add. Noticed a runner for trainer of thread C Jones has a horse in that has been a market mover R2 Addington - Johnny Nevits fixed odds, starting

Win $9 into $6  

Place $2.20 into $1.40 

The fav is an All Star runner who has a better draw.

[Rusty]

4 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said:

You would have to be very brave to buy it.

Brave or stupid. 

[karrotsishere]

3 hours ago, karrotsishere said:

Was just looking at TAB for tonight Alex & Add. Noticed a runner for trainer of thread C Jones has a horse in that has been a market mover R2 Addington - Johnny Nevits fixed odds, starting

Win $9 into $6  

Place $2.20 into $1.40 

The fav is an All Star runner who has a better draw.

Its into $5.50 & $1.35 now. Its got nice form 32 which is pretty much the same form as All Stars runner X4632. Altho its last race was at the Mot whereas All Stars runner have all been at Addington. Both have top drivers on. But All Stars runner has better draw in 2 & it is in 7. Thought maybe owners if a syndicate might be having a fun good punt on it, that can sometimes happen, but doesn’t look like it. Has just 3 owners.

Interesting, wonder what it is that punters are going for it over the All Stars runner. ... ?

[Lightning Blue]

28 minutes ago, Rusty said:

Brave or stupid. 

I don't understand ???? Why would it be stupid to buy such a spendid horse ? Benson's Mate with 3 wins/ 3 placings from 9 starts. WAY better than most SR?

Including beating *Sugar Me at Addington . 'Suger Me' winning 4 of it's last 5 Addington / NZ  starts too, so seems pretty smart.

Must be an 'alright horse' to beat him.

As an Australian buyer, 'Benson's Mate' would be one of the first horses you would look at on that Winton program I would think?

So why stupid or brave ?

[Happy Sunrise]

1 hour ago, Rusty said:

Brave or stupid. 

Stupid.

[karrotsishere]

49 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

Its into $5.50 & $1.35 now.

Its dropped again, into $4.50 & $1.30 - interesting will have to watch it race. 

[Lightning Blue]

6 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said:

You would have to be very brave to buy it.

You have moved on from brave to stupid to buy a winning horse ?? . I find that quite intriguing without an explanation.

There are 2 chances of any Australian buyers to be looking at the Colleen Negus driven horse to buy , that she got 4 months suspended on. Buckleys and None.

I would think Benson, even though only half horse-power of Regazzo Mach, would adapt and win in Aus quite easily.

Although I guess Sugar Me flopped badly in 2 Australian runs to date (whereas he won 6 out of 9 starts at Addington this year , with a 2nd to Bensons Mate as well

50 minutes ago, Happy Sunrise said:

Stupid.

)