Addington

Was having them in Auckland a good idea. Just asking for a friend?

$220K tops both sales

CD is around 85 per day but like all things you can pay more or less depending on who trains for you

I could be wrong but think the TABNZ Ozzie form lines come from Australia. There's are no better and in some cases worse in some publications

11 hours ago, Hesi said:

No worries

I enjoy reading some of the more interesting positive posters on Racecafe in particular, such as Tasman Man, Gubellini and Cubes, to name but a few

So do i and a few others as well as  they are all invested in the game . By all accounts your a goose if you have any positive thoughts about NZ TB's. Tell that to connections of NZ owned /trained horses who have been helping themselves to Ozzie stakes for decades or current BGP members. And that's only for starters

10 slots sold for 3 years. Nice to see a positive for the game even if some wont agree.

Next up i should have mentioned earlier is who are the slot holders. Apparently out this week so that's the next bit of the puzzle

16 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said:

Listening is a challenge though.

Absolutely.

The mood and price action at upcoming sales will update us all as to the health of the industry

3 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said:

No surprise is it.

Alas no . But unless people point out the obvious to those in charge then nothing will change.

Woodham gets the axe from TAB after all their disasters under Allen and Hughes. Earlier the TAB CFO, Shaun Brooks, departed  and ended up at ATC . Now i read this from the Chairmans report

"At the HRNZ Board meeting on 26 January we welcomed Shaun Brooks to the HRNZ Board as ATC appointee. "

Will John Allen somehow be adopted by harness in some capacity and reunite with his old crew or will common sense prevail?

14 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said:

In the end the TAB controls the outcome

Under the 2020 Racing Act that's plain nonsense.

Yes TAB has to confirm a date Schedule so as to maximize their assets eg trucks, cameras and staff but the codes decide their own fate in terms of funding via Racing distributions, think market share. The TAB  have nothing to do with which code gets what..

Smokescreens such as this suggest once again that all is not well in Harness land.

I thought the same. Trainer has been at it since 1984 and has only saluted 165 times having had  just under 3000 starters for a meek UDR of .1195. 

On 2/2/2022 at 11:31 AM, Purple Parsnip said:

Where should I be looking?

Monday 14th February at Riding for Disabled building from 3 pm onwards🙄

22 hours ago, Lightning Blue said:

Since then , 1 year ago , when she (I'm Off N Gone) picked up that 80k 1st prize in the race you say there , she only Won 1 race at Forbury Park . Being in the leading Beach stable doesn't seem to of helped , contrary to Happy opinion.

The 2nd placegetter is even worse , WITH GRACE driven by happys mate Korbyn Newman , was a stablemate then. Picked up the 23k for 2nd and in a whole year since , just the one win at Invercargill in 23 starts. now hacking around on these grass track Sundays...... think they should of sent her to Aus as well to get a win ???

Thanks for that high quality post Gamma. Very informative.

9 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said:

That is what I am pushing. Perception.

If John Dunn is such a great trainer (which he is and a superb driver) how can new young trainers achieve what he does with poorly performing horses in such a short space of time?

If Jess Alford, Cam Jones and Matt Purvis can improve horses in such a short space of time what does that say for the rest of the trainers who, in essence, are failing their owners and horses ability by not having them anywhere near their peak? Why would you go to a Gameson or Chmiel? What happens when middle of the road trainers start disappearing and the races are full of Dunn, Todd and Purdon runners?

How do trainers like Gavin Burgess (who I thought was an excellent trainer and produces horse ready to run) and Bruce Negus feel when they see their horses improve dramatically? eg Sam's Town, Mark Dunnett, Stella's Delight. Does that see them and other smaller trainers feel like continuing in the industry when they know they are so out of their depth?

If John Dunn and similar trainers continue to produce horses that are transformed in short spaces of time will that turn punters off betting into races where they have these types of horses?

Consequent to stating that, I will be told to punt those horses to reap the rewards, fair enough. Why not, look at Violet Knight. But, if you are an owner of a horse in the same race and see something like Stella's Delight come and out win, one would have to ask yourself why am I persisting with this horse and will I bother getting another one when I have no chance with these types of horses popping up more and more? Most people are non committal punters who don't read about stable changes etc so how do they back a horse who has no form but is paying $3 - It doesn't compute.

If the relationship between high ranking officials in harness racing and leading trainers is strong through having their horses with the trainers does that create a perception of favouritism in the industry? If RIB officials adjudicate on drivers and trainers who have a social relationship does this create a perception of bias in the industry? What about the relationship of the vets?

Is the newly minted code of conduct designed to help harness racing or designed to stop some participants from having a (contrary) voice?

Harness is trying to generate turnover, but with false starts, starters betting on races, hot favs galloping away, standing starts not standing starts (Copy That anyone), inconsistent application of rules around late scratched horses at the start, removal of the previous starter, the odd trainer banned for illegal substance (Alford and McGrath) and mammoth form reversals, who would bet on harness?

There is a reason why the TAB only splashes out on harness with $10 000 first 4s I believe, because it is the bet least open to manipulation. That can't do the industry any good unless it is a monster jackpot. Why would countless punters (some of whom are owners) continue with harness when they can only get $20 on? Why continue when if you have a little bet the odds come in $5 or $10? Why continue when you  can have maximum bets of $3.40 for example. The TAB is risk adverse to harness and that can only harm harness. Why would Aussie bookmakers expose themselves to NZers with accounts with them when they are open to a rort? They don't as they don't take the races.

Is there a perception of drug use in harness? After Alford, McGrath, the silence over Cam Jones, and Mitchell Kerr the drums are beating more widely so, yes, there is. Are drugs being used in harness? Don't know. Maybe trainers are using every available legal means to get a horse to win but that costs so essentially buying a win which would be depressing for owners when they get the vet bill after a win. And what about that article which said EPO is easy to get?

Harness racing was subject to some of the most incompetent leadership at the start of Covid when they used it to smokescreen their way through a raft of poorly thought out changes in many areas of the game. Presentation of the product being one of them. Australian racing is miles ahead of what harness provides due to these decisions. Stakes in harness are pitiful in comparsion to the gallops in NZ and then a step further in OZ. Who would want to own a harness horse? I know more people who have a small share in an Ozzie galloper than I do harness. Is it is sign of things to come? For example, any racing people in Dunedin will be into gallopers from now on, not harness.

 What is needed and is badly missing is some day to day responsive leadership by HRNZ. They have done good things with the new calendar etc but they should shut down all the perception talk, not through some flimsy code of conduct but by stating what they are doing for the industry in real time. Goodness, Woodham said he was going to share everything at the beginning of his role but got the Jesse Alford situation wrong and has been very quiet since with controversial issues. What are we left with? The Box Seat? God help us all.

- Do they have the courage to state what they are testing for, including Formalin and EPO etc?

- Should they have had the courage to publicly exonerate Andrew Fitzgerald when he was subject to speculation about him and Cam Jones?

- Do they have the courage to publicly admonish their own when they make an error or defend them when open to public perception?

- Does the RIB have the courage to ask tougher questions and seek more informed answers in their stipes reports rather than just asking for the sake of asking?

- Do they have the courage to visit stables who show unexplained improvement in their UDR's as a preemptive measure?

- Do the heads of harness have the foresight to no longer have horses with leading stables once their current horses are retired?

- Does harness have the courage to publish reports about animal welfare? Eg An explanation of the death of Mexicana

- Do they actually have the courage to enforce the code of conduct? Eg House

If nobody has anything to hide then none of the few suggestions above would harm anyone or breach their privacy. RIB reports are very open about what they say about participants anyway but just not when the shoe is on the other foot.

There are lots of things they could do to make harness a more palatable and sustainable industry if they wanted to.

As Hesi says, perception is everything. Control that in a proactive way and everyone will be better off in the long run, or as I fear, harness racing will contract in size reasonably quickly in the future as it is a cycle which could reduce very very quickly through ownership, breeding and economic conditions. Could we reach a point where more of our trainers are off to Australia and Northern harness racing folds? A really selfish thing to say is, one of the hopes for harness is Greyhound racing to get banned in the near future and harness takes some of its gambling money. Why would that happen? Because perception of that industry is indeed the truth and nothing was done about it.

Those that say there is smoke in this fire and those that say there is no fire at all are both wrong because looking at what is going on is open to perception regardless.  I get called negative by Craigos and LB and that is fine. People can disagree with me, and posters who are on various sites can take potshots but I don't care. If they can't see what a precarious position the industry is in, so be it. I only care about seeing the horses being looked after and enjoying a day at the races where horses, trainers and drivers compete in a positive environment.

 

Outstanding post Happy.

Its the exact reason i opened up a thread about the obvious decline  of Harness in NZ. Its like death by a thousand cuts. Forbury gone Smaller fields outside of Canterbury ,Auckland in major decline. Central Districts surviving just, thanks to Mickey

As for Woodham if he was that good surely he would still be at TAB. 

1 hour ago, Hesi said:

Not sure, is it?

I'm certain it isnt but each to their own

1 hour ago, mardigras said:

Your picture looks fine to me.

Stakes at Invercargill $139k, stakes at Riccarton $320k.

Net revenue after expenses - I'd be thinking that Invercargill achieved a higher % return compared to funding than Riccarton, given yield% likely lower at Riccarton due to bonus bets. As well as TAB costs around market risk management, broadcasting etc for Riccarton compared to Invercargill.

I don't know the net revenue numbers after expenses, but I would estimate that Invercargill got about $35k (fluctuating due to fixed odds results), and Riccarton around $63k.

If I was even close, that would be around 25% of the stakes for Invercargill, and 20% of the stakes for Riccarton. But I'm probably wrong and the numbers are more likely higher for Invercargill and lower for Riccarton.

And can you point us to where these turnover numbers are available? Are they broken down into fixed odds/tote etc?

 

Its just dawned on me who you might be.. Rod from the bay.

As such no further interest engaging with you. Many have tried but none have succeeded

3 hours ago, mardigras said:

What metric are you using to suggest that.

For starters

Invercargill Cup day--- 700K

Riccarton Gallops----2 ,100,000K

As in last Saturday purely an example .

Better still look at Harness share of RacingNZ payout versus  TB's. Clue Total budgeted Payout by TAB of 170 where HRNZ accepted  46 mio  then the Chair says they need to improve export earnings. Methven on Sunday's numbers which i posted above, cant say  that was  a home run for harness either . I'm painting a picture here and if you disagree sobeit . Heads in the sand stuff if  you ask me.

15 minutes ago, mardigras said:

If you think gallops is going well, that's a long way off the mark.

I think you have missed the point i was making . TB's although battling are doing way better than Harness. The latter looks to me to be in terminal decline in NZ as punters continue to leave in droves.

8 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said:

It's the TAB so go 10 and 3.30

They are obviously onto the Woodend change of stables situation. Cant blame them for that. That said if anyone else has a Smokey they can prosper from better odds.

Much has been written recently about Woodend etc, the plunges, earlier  trainer /driver charges and whether they damage the integrity of the sport in terms of punter participation.

Well here are some turnover numbers i observed from Saturday.

Invercargill Cup day--- 700K

Riccarton Gallops----2 ,100,000K

The biggest Ozzie operator turnover at Methven yesterday averaged about 4000 per race. This includes Win ,Place Trifectas, Quinellas as well as First 4's and early Quaddie. They covered only 4 races

Turnover on the first at Ellerslie just about beat the above 4 races by itself. Are we seeing a pattern here and TB's think they have issues

13 hours ago, Enteebee said:

I wont be posting my views on here as I do enough on the group I started where the lawyers get sent their screenshots from.  The lawyer was actually going to be in trouble with the law society if he pursued it as acted illegally

I am a big fan of @Happy Sunrisewho is well on to what is happening

I see you are the target of a Chief cheap shot. Best ignored as per.

5 minutes ago, Happy Sunrise said:

Because the transformation of horses follows exactly the same pattern.

Happy, you are wasting your time on the likes of LB and Blackie. They are symptomatic of the problems that harness has found itself in . Everything squeaky clean and above board in their minds, each to their own.

6 minutes ago, Lightning Blue said:

Sometimes you can set up a horse for a plunge. We did it EVERY horse that came from NZ , before the locals got a look at them. It's a BETTING SPORT. 

Not surprised by this type of post given your background

Good luck to you- hope you got plenty

34 minutes ago, Lightning Blue said:

You guys are Making Trouble, and bagging your champions for NOTHING. a maiden race lol lol lol... . world isn't ending

That attitude personifies whats wrong with Harness in NZ . Pointing out an unusual betting plunge on a horse that has had many trainers, run 1 placing in 23 starts is not bagging anyone , just asking the question- why or how ? .That's what RIB team should be doing today because punter integrity is  diminishing in NZ and this is a classic example of why.

31 minutes ago, Happy Sunrise said:

Another thing to watch.

Always one to follow when money is on as he is a good judge.

Its got me doing some real study on this race and ive had a decent place bet on the other Stellar in the race trained by G Payne and Tim in the cart 2.40fixed for Stellar Arden who has had 1 start on the track for a placing and drawn nicely at 4. What could possibly go wrong?