RJB Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 2 hours ago, mardigras said: Of course there is another choice - and it is probably the most apt one. Close down racing in NZ. Continue running a betting operator. Send the proceeds to the government as part of its revenue stream. You put that out to the NZ public in a referendum with all the detail of how the industry is subsidised effectively by the taxpayer, I think the vote would be massively in its favour. What a stupid comment shows no respect for the many thousands of hardworking people involved in the industry....who would be without a job if your stupid suggestion was given any traction, I personally think with the upfront payment, which seems not to be mentioned anywhere yet, that would have to pay for the exclusive rights and with the ongoing money to be tipped in it cant be anything but good for the industry as a whole. ..JMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) Hard to comment on this really until fuller details are released following ministerial approval. That said, I find it hard to believe that will happen as early as next week as some apparently have suggested. He surely will need to consult with participants, at least with the codes and recognised industry bodies in the first instance as well as seek advice from the DIA and possibly Treasury at a minimum within government? Seems to me that's more likely to take months than days. Edited March 28, 2023 by curious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 7 minutes ago, barryb said: The problem with your comment is you fail to see that for at least the last 10 yrs the industry has not been able to stand on its own 2 feet, it has been propped up by Govt. The Wine industry, Fishing industry, Sheep & Beef, Dairy are not, why should racing be?. What other NZ industry is effectively given handouts to stay afloat & is artificially the size it is because of it?. As Mardi says, if the general public knew they would overwhelmingly vote for it to stop immediately. Sorry Barry,yes it may have been a shambles and run badly to get to where it is now, but lets hope and pray this is the light at the end of a very dark Tunnel...its our only small beacon of hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 7 hours ago, Hesi said: You will notice the mention of broadcast offering Just a mention. What's the detail?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 1 hour ago, curious said: Hard to comment on this really until fuller details are released following ministerial approval. That said, I find it hard to believe that will happen as early as next week as some apparently have suggested. He surely will need to consult with participants, at least with the codes and recognised industry bodies in the first instance as well as seek advice from the DIA and possibly Treasury at a minimum within government? Seems to me that's more likely to take months than days. And what about Skycity? As Ladbrokes are heavily into online casino betting Skycity will have a competitor and Ladbrokes will expect the government to protect them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 38 minutes ago, barryb said: The problem with your comment is you fail to see that for at least the last 10 yrs the industry has not been able to stand on its own 2 feet, it has been propped up by Govt. The Wine industry, Fishing industry, Sheep & Beef, Dairy are not, why should racing be?. What other NZ industry is effectively given handouts to stay afloat & is artificially the size it is because of it?. As Mardi says, if the general public knew they would overwhelmingly vote for it to stop immediately. He simply doesn't understand the level to which it has been propped up. And the level to which it will still be being propped up, even if more money is being generated for its purpose - since that money will still not be coming from NZ racing generated revenue. I wonder where he is when a very large business shuts down because it can't carry on - all those hard working employees without a job - with all that respect he goes on about, he must be out there campaigning for their continuance. It's one of the reasons why racing is in this position. A view that racing should carry on because there are hard working people involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 4 hours ago, mardigras said: Of course there is another choice - and it is probably the most apt one. Close down racing in NZ. Continue running a betting operator. Send the proceeds to the government as part of its revenue stream. You put that out to the NZ public in a referendum with all the detail of how the industry is subsidised effectively by the taxpayer, I think the vote would be massively in its favour. Racing pays far more in tax than the benefits it receives. Can't see where you are coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 12 minutes ago, slam dunk said: And what about Skycity? As Ladbrokes are heavily into online casino betting Skycity will have a competitor and Ladbrokes will expect the government to protect them. I didn't think TAB NZ was allowed to conduct online casino betting? That would take a legislative change wouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, slam dunk said: Racing pays far more in tax than the benefits it receives. Can't see where you are coming from. On that basis, if I run a business employing 100 people at $100k each. Tax paid (excluding GST etc) of say $3m from those employees. My business fails and needs propping up. So I guess if the government gives me $2m to stay afloat every year, you'd be happy with that since the tax is greater than what the business is receiving from the government. I like it, where do I sign up. Edited March 28, 2023 by mardigras 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turny Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 23 minutes ago, slam dunk said: And what about Skycity? As Ladbrokes are heavily into online casino betting Skycity will have a competitor and Ladbrokes will expect the government to protect them. I very strongly suspect that is the carrot behind the deal, the NZ TAB is simply the vehicle to achieve a greater ambition. As a retired business person this all makes good sense. I wish them well, an opportunity lost ... maybe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 1 hour ago, barryb said: Unfortunately NZ inc would be broke in a short time if the model for NZ Racing was applied across all business. I think thats 2/3 of the issue facing NZ Racing, most participants have no idea to what extent its being paid for by NZ Taxpayer. NZ Taxpayer has no idea either, NZ Racing is a welfare participant just doesn't get its funding from WINZ. If you call participants taxpayers then yes they are sponsoring racing. But really where the idea comes that the taxpayer is paying for racing beats me. Its way too much the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 3 hours ago, curious said: I didn't think TAB NZ was allowed to conduct online casino betting? That would take a legislative change wouldn't it? Ladbrokes do it. So makes sense for them to steer the "customer list" that way. If the government bans advertising of unlicensed casino's I fail to see how Ladbrokes are going to comply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, slam dunk said: If you call participants taxpayers then yes they are sponsoring racing. But really where the idea comes that the taxpayer is paying for racing beats me. Its way too much the other way around. Where do you think the funding comes from that the TAB is providing the Racing industry? Where do you think the special funds have come out of when the TAB has needed additional funds to keep things afloat? Edited March 28, 2023 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 3 minutes ago, barryb said: Classic case of you having zero idea. Racing isn't self supporting, it doesnt earn enough to stay afloat on its own mate. Where do you think the funding comes from? its in many forms including tax relief. Come on mate do your homework. As you said barry - the classic case of people in the industry / involved in some aspect, having no idea of what is actually supporting the industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 On 3/28/2023 at 5:33 PM, barryb said: Classic case of you having zero idea. Racing isn't self supporting, it doesnt earn enough to stay afloat on its own mate. Where do you think the funding comes from? its in many forms including tax relief. Come on mate do your homework. You contradict yourself. If there is tax relief that means racing is already paying far too much tax. What do you think the "Fair Tax" campaign was all about. Also given all legislative changes letting Lotto & casinos operate then racing has been negatively served. Total nonsense saying racing is being propped up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 15 hours ago, slam dunk said: You contradict yourself. If there is tax relief that means racing is already paying far too much tax. What do you think the "Fair Tax" campaign was all about. Also given all legislative changes letting Lotto & casinos operate then racing has been negatively served. Total nonsense saying racing is being propped up. Really? Compared to the direct tax on racing that the aussies pay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, slam dunk said: If there is tax relief that means racing is already paying far too much tax. What do you think the "Fair Tax" campaign was all about. Total nonsense saying racing is being propped up. Sadly, this is nonsense. Fair Tax simply reduced the tax from minimal to what is now basically zero. The issue is the money that is provided to the industry via the TAB, is 100% government revenue. And the government gifts it to the racing industry. It is government revenue earned that could be used for far more important things. Instead, the government chooses to prop up the racing industry with it. To the level of around $120m per year (and more in some years with additional support payments). I wouldn't mind if NZ racing was actually a significant contributor to that revenue, but they are not. They wouldn't even be a 20% contributor to it. NZ gallops, a lot less than that. Let alone the other support payments the government has stumped up with for the industry. When times have got tough, more money pumped into racing. Along with all the massive tax breaks (such as those stemming from Fair Tax). Additionally NZTR receives all that government owned money and doesn't even have to pay tax on it before handing it out to racing participants, who don't pay tax on it. As I say, what other industry gets that level of direct funding for free. An industry that simply makes no money itself and contributes stuff all through participant tax paying. I wish I could run a business like that. I can't - but you seem happy for NZ Racing to get very special treatment. Even though the business model of NZ Racing is a failed one. Since it simply is not self sustainable. Edited March 31, 2023 by mardigras 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 Mardigrass, How many times do you expect the same money to be taxed? If NZTR receives money from the TAB distribution it has already been taxed. On the TAB I'm looking at the Queensland partnering agreement. Its totally different but worth digesting. The gambling environment in Australia is also totally different to NZ. Ladbrokes don't have a monopoly. _________________________________________- Ladbrokes have committed to a seven-year deal to become the BRC’s primary wagering partner at both Eagle Farm and Doomben, where their revered ‘Ladbrokes’ Lounges’ will be in prime positions at both tracks. Ladbrokes will also become naming rights sponsors for three Group 1 races from next year. “We are thrilled Ladbrokes will become a major partner of the Brisbane Racing Club,” Ladbrokes CEO Dean Shannon said. “The Eagle Farm and Doomben circuits are iconic venues, and we look forward to partnering with the BRC for at least the next seven years. “To have our name on time-honoured features such as the Group 1 Ladbrokes Queensland Derby, Ladbrokes Doomben 10,000 and Ladbrokes J.J. Atkins is a genuine thrill for a company that lives and breathes racing on a daily basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, slam dunk said: Mardigrass, How many times do you expect the same money to be taxed? If NZTR receives money from the TAB distribution it has already been taxed. By who? The TAB distribution has not been taxed, the TAB does not pay income tax. GST comes off before you get to a net revenue. That net revenue does not have tax deducted - it becomes the basis for the money handed out to the racing industry - without any standard income tax or any other taxes. And even if the TAB paid income tax, it doesn't change the situation where whatever is given to the Racing industry, is a government handout - as it is all government money to begin with. The money that the Act earns is money that is earned by the government, not the Racing industry. You seem to fail to grasp this. And that money is then handed out freely to the racing industry - tax free. Edited April 2, 2023 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 1 hour ago, slam dunk said: If NZTR receives money from the TAB distribution it has already been taxed. Nope. Wrong. Unlike the Aussie situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 21 minutes ago, barryb said: Its staggering how so many just don't get what you are saying Mardi. & even after all that its still a fucking joke of a situation & unsustainable. I'm staggered also. It's extreme naivety made worse by their view being factually incorrect. I don't make the rules, the government has. Maybe it's an unwillingness to accept reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slam dunk Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 7 hours ago, mardigras said: By who? The TAB distribution has not been taxed, the TAB does not pay income tax. GST comes off before you get to a net revenue. That net revenue does not have tax deducted - it becomes the basis for the money handed out to the racing industry - without any standard income tax or any other taxes. And even if the TAB paid income tax, it doesn't change the situation where whatever is given to the Racing industry, is a government handout - as it is all government money to begin with. The money that the Act earns is money that is earned by the government, not the Racing industry. You seem to fail to grasp this. And that money is then handed out freely to the racing industry - tax free. Every bet is taxed. From wikipedia... although I'm not sure how the fixed odds betting is treated. The TAB offers a wide range of totalisator and fixed-odds betting products. Just over 80 percent of the totalisator betting dollar is returned to the customer. The rest is returned to the racing and sporting codes, after tax and NZ Racing Board costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, slam dunk said: Every bet is taxed. From wikipedia... although I'm not sure how the fixed odds betting is treated What do you mean by taxed. The only tax the TAB pays is GST on the difference between the gross bets taken and the dividends paid out. That is a tax the statutory body is paying as a tax collector. Like every business pays. They pay GST as a tax collector. What they don't do, is pay any income tax. And neither does the recipients of that government money. You're in denial. The GST is peanuts. And it is GST on business conducted by a government entity directed to the government. They are simply paying themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, slam dunk said: The TAB offers a wide range of totalisator and fixed-odds betting products. Just over 80 percent of the totalisator betting dollar is returned to the customer. The rest is returned to the racing and sporting codes, after tax and NZ Racing Board costs. Why don't you do us all a favour and read the legislation. The TAB does not pay any tax except for GST as a tax collector. Do you think other business should be allowed to conduct business and be exempt from paying GST? No Income tax. It seems that apart from not paying income tax, you think the racing industry should also be exempt GST. Delusional. The NZ Racing industry is a beneficiary. Much like a person receiving the unemployment benefit. Except, even the recipient of the unemployment benefit, has to pay tax on that benefit. You are showing you have no understanding of how the TAB operates and how the industry is funded. Edited April 2, 2023 by mardigras 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted April 2, 2023 Share Posted April 2, 2023 Even racing club administrators think that racing is taxed and that we [racing ] donate millions to the Govt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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