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Wide barriers - thought process


mardigras
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This is so common - and is mind boggling to me. The biggest problem horses face with wide barriers is getting a jockey to ride the horse to win and getting the trainer to ignore their thinking on barrier draws. They are the biggest hindrance in the chances of a horse drawn wide.

This from https://www.nswcountryandpicnicracing.com.au/

The $75,000 feature race, which is open to the best fillies and mares in the region, was taken out by the Gratz Vella-trained Crucial Witness, which put in a truly remarkable effort to beat the big field.

Guided by Tommy berry, the Star Witness mare was forced to race three and four wide after jumping midfield from gate 11. 

Despite the tough run over the 1400m journey, Crucial Witness kept on coming down the Wagga straight, defeating Carnival Miss by 0.89 of a length, while in third and just over a length away was Too Much Lippy.

“It was a tough win,” Vella said.

“Even Tom Berry got off her and said there was nothing much he could do and that it was all her, and that he just kept her comfortable and balanced and she got the job done at the finish. 

“She just kept giving and was strong to the line.”

Vella almost scratched the Canberra galloper from the event after drawing wide, but on the advice of jockey Brodie Loy, he decided to run the mare and he was happy that he changed his mind.  

“I did think she could win, but when I saw the barrier draw, I was half-hesitating and was thinking we might not be going around,” Vella said.

“It was a good field, and in those fields you need every help you can get but the reason I did race her is because Brodie Loy came back after her last run and told me to run her. 

“We were a bit stiff (not to win at Canberra), and he said, ‘don’t hesitate about taking her to the Queen of the South’ and we did.

“She pulled up enormous after the run and I thought we may as well go, and she was good enough to win.”

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2 minutes ago, mardigras said:

This is so common - and is mind boggling to me. The biggest problem horses face with wide barriers is getting a jockey to ride the horse to win and getting the trainer to ignore their thinking on barrier draws. They are the biggest hindrance in the chances of a horse drawn wide.

This from https://www.nswcountryandpicnicracing.com.au/

The $75,000 feature race, which is open to the best fillies and mares in the region, was taken out by the Gratz Vella-trained Crucial Witness, which put in a truly remarkable effort to beat the big field.

Guided by Tommy berry, the Star Witness mare was forced to race three and four wide after jumping midfield from gate 11. 

Despite the tough run over the 1400m journey, Crucial Witness kept on coming down the Wagga straight, defeating Carnival Miss by 0.89 of a length, while in third and just over a length away was Too Much Lippy.

“It was a tough win,” Vella said.

“Even Tom Berry got off her and said there was nothing much he could do and that it was all her, and that he just kept her comfortable and balanced and she got the job done at the finish. 

“She just kept giving and was strong to the line.”

Vella almost scratched the Canberra galloper from the event after drawing wide, but on the advice of jockey Brodie Loy, he decided to run the mare and he was happy that he changed his mind.  

“I did think she could win, but when I saw the barrier draw, I was half-hesitating and was thinking we might not be going around,” Vella said.

“It was a good field, and in those fields you need every help you can get but the reason I did race her is because Brodie Loy came back after her last run and told me to run her. 

“We were a bit stiff (not to win at Canberra), and he said, ‘don’t hesitate about taking her to the Queen of the South’ and we did.

“She pulled up enormous after the run and I thought we may as well go, and she was good enough to win.”

I reckon the key to that is 'he just kept her comfortable and balanced'.

I think a lot of jocks push them too hard when put in that position.

Just my view.

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4 minutes ago, pete said:

I reckon the key to that is 'he just kept her comfortable and balanced'.

I think a lot of jocks push them too hard when put in that position.

Just my view.

Just ride the horse that way all the time. Ride the horse at the pace the horse is most suited to. Oz jockeys are typically piss-poor at that. They should learn from the Europeans. The barrier is highly unlikely to be the cause of failure - the ride certainly is more likely the reason.

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You guys(Mardi, Barry and curious), have the data that shows barrier draws are irrelevant, so if anyone wants to disprove what you are saying, it is up to them to some up with alternate data.

The other thing that stands out, is the number of horses that come from well back, widest on the turn, down the outside and win easily.  Castle Bay in the last at Te Rapa yesterday was an example.

Because horses can't talk, I guess there are a lot of things that are unknown as to why they run well or poorly

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1 minute ago, Hesi said:

You guys(Mardi, Barry and curious), have the data that shows barrier draws are irrelevant, so if anyone wants to disprove what you are saying, it is up to them to some up with alternate data.

The other thing that stands out, is the number of horses that come from well back, widest on the turn, down the outside and win easily.  Castle Bay in the last at Te Rapa yesterday was an example.

Because horses can't talk, I guess there are a lot of things that are unknown as to why they run well or poorly

Given the general thoughts on barriers (jockeys included), if anything the overall stats should suggest barriers play a role. Yet even with that jockey negativity, the outcomes don't reflect the negativity. There will be the odd instance where barriers appear negative - entrenched views of jockeys bringing about that with poor riding. Ellerslie has a couple of such examples.

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3 hours ago, mardigras said:

Just ride the horse that way all the time. Ride the horse at the pace the horse is most suited to. Oz jockeys are typically piss-poor at that. They should learn from the Europeans. The barrier is highly unlikely to be the cause of failure - the ride certainly is more likely the reason.

Definitely.

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Some years ago leading trainer got sick of the way his horses were ridden by the stable jockey as well a leading jockey. So he sent him off to a well known video analyst. I know for some tracks & conditions the advice was "don't worry if you are 10 lengths last just don't be planted wide".

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13 minutes ago, slam dunk said:

 I know for some tracks & conditions the advice was "don't worry if you are 10 lengths last just don't be planted wide".

I'd love to know which tracks & conditions. I love it when my horse is running along in a style it likes and is 3 or 4 wide. Don't recall many if any times, being wide like that has made the difference between me winning and losing.

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