Raw Deal For Harness

[Field Commander]

Is anyone else saddened with the way the TAB is funding the codes now days and how Harness is being disadvantaged ?

On top of this each Saturday during October the TAB have ran bonus bet promo's on 16 races. Races 1 to 4 at both the NZ meetings and the Melbourne and Sydney meetings.

Since Friday there have been 20 bonus bet races,

Fri 22 Oct

Moonee Valley (2)

Sat 23 Oct 

Matamata (4)

Riccarton (4)

Moonee Valley (4)

Randwick (4)

Mon 25 Oct 

Te Rapa (2)

 

Nothing for Harness or Greyhounds but 20 races for Thoroughbreds.

 

 

[Globederby19]

FC, go to the Punting Perspectives forum and scroll through to find out from our well esteemed experts how the TAB roll and their complete incompetence

Bet off shore,  is your best bet. 

[karrotsishere]

What if we don't want to go scrolling thru tehe. 

Heard @mardigras is an expert in this area tho. Perhaps could give a quick brief summary of what FC & myself have missed on Punting Perspective forum. 

Thanks for the tip tho Globe. Might take a look at it at some stage 😄

[mardigras]

9 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

What if we don't want to go scrolling thru tehe. 

Heard @mardigras is an expert in this area tho. Perhaps could give a quick brief summary of what FC & myself have missed on Punting Perspective forum. 

Thanks for the tip tho Globe. Might take a look at it at some stage 😄

Wouldn't say I'm an expert on the day to day operations of the TAB. But I do understand a fair bit about wagering and markets - and the policies of the TAB are not helping the industry it is supposedly supporting.

On the topic of things like treatment of Harness versus Gallops etc, this is just more of what they do in regards the ways in which they support their customer base. They think that the money is to be made on gallops, and additionally, as much as anything else, offshore gallops. Hence even offshore gallops had bonus options ahead of local harness or greyhounds.

They are intent on driving their customer base away from domestic racing which will do nothing to aid in the sustainability of those local codes.

So can't really help on the topic as started - except to say I'd expect to see more of the same from the bunch of useless twits we have in charge.

[Happy Sunrise]

56 minutes ago, Field Commander said:

On top of this each Saturday during October the TAB have ran bonus bet promo's on 16 races. Races 1 to 4 at both the NZ meetings and the Melbourne and Sydney meetings.

Since Friday there have been 20 bonus bet races,

I think the TAB's way of giving back is to have guaranteed 10 000 first fours on Sunday. 

They don't trust harness enough on a Sunday meeting to give bonus bets. To be honest, I can't blame them.

I would like rather see quaddie injections for harness than first fours but that is just my preference.

[Field Commander]

1 hour ago, Globederby19 said:

FC, go to the Punting Perspectives forum and scroll through to find out from our well esteemed experts how the TAB roll and their complete incompetence

Thanks, I will have a look.

[Happy Sunrise]

2 minutes ago, Field Commander said:

Thanks, I will have a look.

Field Commander, you come from an excellent stable, congratulations.

 

[Lightning Blue]

Here's a good win for the Field Commander , against some Interdominion opposition.

20 minutes ago, Happy Sunrise said:

Field Commander, you come from an excellent stable, congratulations.

 

Place	Book	Horse	Barrier	Hcap	Stakes	Time	Margin	Driver	Trainer
1	3	Field Commander	3	fr	17,500.00	2-02.6		R T May	Brian Saunders
2	2	The Bru Czar	2	fr	5,600.00	2-02.8		G M Hillier	Gary Hillier
3	9	Christopher Vance	9	fr	2,800.00	2-02.9		A G Herlihy MNZM	Roy & Barry Purdon
4	6	Bold Sharvid	6	fr	1,400.00	2-02.9		J P Stormont	Peter Blanchard & Peter Simpson
5	8	Captain Lee	8	fr	700.00			B M Mangos	Jim Smith
6	4	Lord Lenny	4	fr	0.00			F D Cooney	Owen Purdon
7	7	Starship	7	fr	0.00			R J Brosnan	John Reedy
8	1	Almeta Boy	1	fr	0.00			S D Dove	R Knight
9	10	Letterkenny Lad	10	fr	0.00			J W Langdon	John Langdon
10	5	Chance With Vance	5	fr	0.00			A M Butt	Les Purdon
11	11	Gasthof	11	fr	0.00			M R DeFilippi	Gavin Mills
12	12	Rowleyalla	12	fr	0.00			K Rivett	Keven Rivett

[Lightning Blue]

7 minutes ago, Lightning Blue said:

Here's a good win for the Field Commander , against some Interdominion opposition.

29 minutes ago, Happy Sunrise said:

Field Commander, you come from an excellent stable, congratulations.

And another real Excellent Stable (lol) seen here winning a heat as well , at the expense of the Field Commander on this occasion. 

Place	Book	Horse	Barrier	Hcap	Stakes	Time	Margin	Driver	Trainer
1	11	Motor Power	11	fr	17,500.00	3-24.3		J O'Sullivan	Jim O'Sullivan
2	3	Letterkenny Lad	3	fr	5,600.00	3-24.5		J W Langdon	John Langdon
3	14	Rowleyalla	14	fr	2,800.00	3-24.9		K Rivett	Keven Rivett
4	12	Gaelic Skipper	12	fr	1,400.00	3-24.9		D J Butcher	Lew Driver
5	2	Gypsy Vance	2	fr	700.00			B M Mangos	Bernie Hackett
6	16	Bold Sharvid	16	fr	0.00			J P Stormont	Peter Blanchard & Peter Simpson
7	6	Starship	6	fr	0.00			R J Brosnan	John Reedy
8	13	Tight Connection	13	fr	0.00			R M Cameron	Roy & Barry Purdon
9	5	Lord Lenny	5	fr	0.00			F D Cooney	Owen Purdon
10	10	Thorate	10	fr	0.00			B P Hancock	Brian Hancock
11	4	Two Under	4	fr	0.00			V J Knight	R Knight
12	7	Field Commander	7	fr	0.00			R T May	Brian Saunders

[Happy Sunrise]

37 minutes ago, Lightning Blue said:

And another real Excellent Stable (lol) seen here winning a heat as well , at the expense of the Field Commander on this occasion

Cheap shot, LB. 😂

[Addington]

13 hours ago, Field Commander said:

Is anyone else saddened with the way the TAB is funding the codes now days and how Harness is being disadvantaged ?

Cant see how harness is being disadvantaged under new Act. The codes argue their case for how much of the pie they should get. Didn't Woodham and Co say they were happy with current payout but needed to lift in Export revenue. Fact is around the Globe TB's are more popular with owners breeders and punters.

I do like these ideas from Happy Sunrise though

They don't trust harness enough on a Sunday meeting to give bonus bets. To be honest, I can't blame them.

Perhaps that why Aussies dont /wont bet on our product?

I would like rather see quaddie injections for harness than first fours but that is just my preference.

Me to

Edited October 26, 2021 by Addington

[Lightning Blue]

2 hours ago, Addington said:

Perhaps that why Aussies dont /wont bet on our product?

The absolute main reason , that blokes tell me at the TAB here in OZ, that harness racing NZ (and Oz with most) being Not supported by them > is because of the chances of the runner they punted on galloping out the back and not being in the contest , (and/or getting blocked for a run towards end of race) These ideas are very prominant in their minds. 10 blokes I know at local TAB won't even watch a harness race, let alone punt on one.   I tell them easier to pick than gallops , but they don't believe me.

NZ especially ! big fields on occasion , and those wretched standing starts. recipe for disaster.

Local Oz harness far more likely to be 10 horse fields and mobile starts. slightly easier to assess.

They had a horrid stand start in QLD during the winter carnival, for the fast class > and the great kiwi horse SPANKEM turned up (a 1.47.7 miracle mile winner) and promptly 'Lost Driver' at start. at $1.50 win odds . A slap in the face for the punters , who just don't/won't bother after. betting on that product.

 

[Rusty]

4 hours ago, Addington said:

Fact is around the Globe TB's are more popular with owners breeders and punters.

Just don't tell that to the Swedes lol

[karrotsishere]

3 hours ago, Lightning Blue said:

The absolute main reason , that blokes tell me at the TAB here in OZ, that harness racing NZ (and Oz with most) being Not supported by them > is because of the chances of the runner they punted on galloping out the back and not being in the contest , (and/or getting blocked for a run towards end of race) These ideas are very prominant in their minds. 10 blokes I know at local TAB won't even watch a harness race, let alone punt on one.   I tell them easier to pick than gallops , but they don't believe me.

NZ especially ! big fields on occasion , and those wretched standing starts. recipe for disaster.

Local Oz harness far more likely to be 10 horse fields and mobile starts. slightly easier to assess.

They had a horrid stand start in QLD during the winter carnival, for the fast class > and the great kiwi horse SPANKEM turned up (a 1.47.7 miracle mile winner) and promptly 'Lost Driver' at start. at $1.50 win odds . A slap in the face for the punters , who just don't/won't bother after. betting on that product.

Absolutely agree with them too. I have rule when having a fun bet. (fun selections games on here for e.g. then rules can be broken) BUT otherwise its strictly

1. Dont bet on trotters

2. Dont bet on stand starts

3. Don't be on a driver Im not confident with

(Remember when Forbs didn't follow rule 3, then would come online FULL of RAGE re this driver is useless etc. I never understood the chosing to punish oneself lol - wonder where Forbs is these days). 

[Lightning Blue]

2 hours ago, karrotsishere said:

Absolutely agree with them too. I have rule when having a fun bet. (fun selections games on here for e.g. then rules can be broken) BUT otherwise its strictly

1. Dont bet on trotters

2. Dont bet on stand starts

3. Don't be on a driver Im not confident with

(Remember when Forbs didn't follow rule 3, then would come online FULL of RAGE re this driver is useless etc. I never understood the chosing to punish oneself lol - wonder where Forbs is these days). 

Well , yes and No........ I was quite happy to back Muscle Mountain out of the mobile Monday , and kiwis love their trotters so some are ok to bet on I guess.

Menangle NSW yesterday had 4 trots/4 paces but all were mobile starts so all good.

Albion Park had a trot stand yesterday, and I 'stupidly' put in 5 spot multi , the $1.60 nz bred Majestic Son mare, SUGARANDSPICE risking the stand manners. She won easily from a mobile 3 starts back , and after galloping out or standing flat footed , she still won her next 2 starts as well, for Pete McMullen. Of course she stood flat-footed again and gave them 130m start so too much yesterday. (actually caught up and ran to 4th at one stage, staggering really)  

so I paid Pay the penalty breaking your rules 1 and 2 combined unfortunately. (swear it's true i had the other 4 legs come in too) 

Regarding rule 3. Yeah , always take your favourite drivers and jockeys . they sure make a difference to your chances often enough. 

[karrotsishere]

48 minutes ago, Lightning Blue said:

Well , yes and No........ I was quite happy to back Muscle Mountain out of the mobile Monday , and kiwis love their trotters so some are ok to bet on I guess.

Menangle NSW yesterday had 4 trots/4 paces but all were mobile starts so all good.

Albion Park had a trot stand yesterday, and I 'stupidly' put in 5 spot multi , the $1.60 nz bred Majestic Son mare, SUGARANDSPICE risking the stand manners. She won easily from a mobile 3 starts back , and after galloping out or standing flat footed , she still won her next 2 starts as well, for Pete McMullen. Of course she stood flat-footed again and gave them 130m start so too much yesterday. (actually caught up and ran to 4th at one stage, staggering really)  

so I paid Pay the penalty breaking your rules 1 and 2 combined unfortunately. (swear it's true i had the other 4 legs come in too) 

Regarding rule 3. Yeah , always take your favourite drivers and jockeys . they sure make a difference to your chances often enough. 

Yes suppose could amend that slightly to don't bet on trotter below Open Grade. Was seriously considering betting M Man to win at $4 something. But didn't as wasn't sure how long the straight was. Turned out to be long. BUT still you were sooooo ONTOIT with Muscle M. How you picked him fresh and all & from that draw = Go Lightning. 

And yeah everyone has their own rules and ways they bet & decide what to do. 

Remember Brods had his & Davis, yourself etc had yours. Different strokes for different folks. But still could never understand Forbs ways lol.

[Lightning Blue]

51 minutes ago, karrotsishere said:

Was seriously considering betting M Man to win at $4 something.

Yes , I took him too in a multi. What a great trotter. Gives his absolute best every time and a true credit to his trainer. A pleasure to see him race. He did super well in Oz and picked up some group 1's. Pretty hard chasing Sundees Son all the time at home. 

In the pacing brigade there's a couple who would just 'Win them In a Row' in Oz , but don't get the rewards they deserve chasing Allstars and Diamonds all the time. LAVER and PEMBROOK PLAYBOY. 

[Globederby19]

20 hours ago, Lightning Blue said:

PEMBROOK PLAYBOY. 

Classy animal and been a wee bit unlucky of late to nail one. The Bettors Delight/Christian Cullen mares cross is very strong. Has a lot of the great Meadow Skipper on the male side and a lot of Adios on the distaff side. Bettors Delight has been quite phenomenal really. Almost a Sir Tristram  /Zabeel version in the Harness game.

[Addington]

21 hours ago, Lightning Blue said:

PEMBROOK PLAYBOY.

Provided he drives it ok its a big chance to run in 3 in Cup. But his Addington strike rate is only fair. And I'm  not bagging Nathan but there is a big difference between driving in Canterbury and down South especially in higher grade Pacing races

The  only driver from Southland who was consistently able to mix it with he top Canterbury drivers at Addington was Henry Skinner IMO.  His strike rate was superb as he knew both form and pace.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Addington

[karrotsishere]

Wonder how turnover was yesterday? Could be a possible indicator as to how Cup Day might go. Not good with Aussie not taking bets as Lightning pointed out. 

Agree re Addy - without being disrespectful, almost isn't aggressive enough, unless pressed to be or feedback to be. Liked Get Up N Dance chances yesterday, however felt was driven TOO conservatively. Altho in defence did see in stripes report was hanging or something like that thru-out.

But I won't be selecting Pembroke for Cup unfortunately due to the non confidence in the drive. With N Ras on or M Purdon, Id be backing him in a second. 

[Addington]

Big southern hope Pembrook Playboy is out of the New Zealand Cup.

Trainer-driver Nathan Williamson confirmed the news this afternoon, saying his star pacer has suffered a “minor” leg injury.

“We had some slight concerns yesterday and didn’t know if it was going to get better … he might have banged it or knocked it, we don’t know.”

But today it was clear the horse wasn’t right and Williamson had no option but to scratch him from Tuesday’s $600,000 Group One feature.

Williamson’s disappointment was clear.

“For someone who’s grown up around racing it is more than just a race ..I don’t know what to say, it’s very gutting.”

With a third in the Ashburton Flying Stakes, a second in the Canterbury Classic and a fourth in the Hannon Memorial many were saying the horse was peaking nicely.

His stocks only grew after yesterday’s front line draw which saw him installed a $5.50 fourth favourite behind Self Assured, Copy That and South Coast Arden.

His shock withdrawal means Southland’s chances now rest with Vintage Cheddar and Robyns Playboy.

Williamson is hopeful the injury is not a long term one – “he might be back at Christmas time” – but that is small consolation five days out from the biggest race of them all.

[karrotsishere]

Very gutting indeed for the connections. Its a classic example of what Double R & I were saying about horses could get sick. Thought he had become a good chance too after the draws came out.

[Royal Nod]

Very disappointing.  The major interest for me in the Cup was if a young up & coming trainer could take out the big one and get a big boost to his career. Would have been great for Southland HR as well.  Commiserations to all connections it must be gutting.   The way the draws fell I think he was a definite chance

[karrotsishere]

Just saw this on galloping thread under Messara Report & thought it was interesting so will share here on Harness & + to get thread kind of back to topic. 

Hesi said

It was specifically stated in the report, that unless Reco 7(below), was implemented, the other recommendations were a waste of time.

Does anyone know if any progress was or is being made, as the report was formally accepted by Cabinet

7. Begin negotiations for the outsourcing of the TABs commercial activities to an international wagering operator, to gain the significant advantages of scale.

Said by Mardigas

TAB NZ is the final state of the betting provider in NZ. I don't think point 7 is a good one. It should have been sell the betting operation in its entirety, include various SLAs etc, and remove the TAB role.

From what was released as the final part of the Bill.

24. The desired future-state post-reforms would see a sustainable racing industry established wherein:

24.1 RITA’s functions are devolved to TAB NZ and the racing codes;

24.2 TAB NZ is established as the sole commercial betting operator in New Zealand for racing and sports - providing world-class betting products that enable it to remain competitive;

Given the recommendation is listed as 'non-legislative', that suggests that TAB NZ could outsource some commercial activities to a different operator, but that the betting operator as such would still be TAB NZ. That may have significant issues for any off-shore provider. If TABCORP was the intended target from Messara, it is possible that their own systems won't simply plug into NZ. Account management functions and betting through their systems may not cope with multiple currencies - or there may well be other operational issues.

So outsourcing some aspects of the business may require the outsourcee to undertake massive work to deliver to the contract. Selling the business as a going concern allows a would be buyer to continue operations with current infrastructure whilst at the same time extending their own solutions to meet the needs of NZ. To eventually gain the advantage of scale/overhead reduction.

Along with issues around branding etc - there won't be any advantage of scale if TAB NZ still delivers an overseeing role which will come at a cost reducing the effectiveness of a single business running NZ operations along with their other operations. 

I'd expect it would be a very lengthy process to negotiate and implement point 7 by way of outsourcing. One year? Probably more like two or three.

[Hesi]

Here is the link to the full Messara Report

https://www.dia.govt.nz/vwluResources/Racing-Report-August-2018/$file/Review-of-the-NZ-Racing-Industry-Report.pdf