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When the Racing Phoenix arises from the ashes, what form should it take


Hesi
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For a start, I think the racing leaders, should be lobbying for a reconsideration of the decision not to race.

If this goes on for quite some while, then people need things in their life to look forward to, to keep their spirits up.

Running a racing meeting does not involve more than say 100-200 people, and unlike many sports we are not talking about close human contact, and there is the ability to register and trace every single one of those 100-200 people.  The generation of money also can be totally online

I was at the supermarket this morning delivering flowers, and at any one time, there would have been 100 plus people either in the supermarket as staff or customers.  Probably at least 40 out the back that people don't see, remembering the online delivery side has ramped up considerably.   All social distancing, but never workable 100%, and very hard to trace people. This situation will continue on for as long as the current lockdown is in place

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10 hours ago, Hesi said:

For a start, I think the racing leaders, should be lobbying for a reconsideration of the decision not to race.

If this goes on for quite some while, then people need things in their life to look forward to, to keep their spirits up.

Running a racing meeting does not involve more than say 100-200 people, and unlike many sports we are not talking about close human contact, and there is the ability to register and trace every single one of those 100-200 people.  The generation of money also can be totally online

I was at the supermarket this morning delivering flowers, and at any one time, there would have been 100 plus people either in the supermarket as staff or customers.  Probably at least 40 out the back that people don't see, remembering the online delivery side has ramped up considerably.   All social distancing, but never workable 100%, and very hard to trace people. This situation will continue on for as long as the current lockdown is in place

Are you talking about racing while we are on lock down?

If that’s the case I think that would be a sure fire way to piss the general public off.  

 

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37 minutes ago, Tonkatime said:

Are you talking about racing while we are on lock down?

If that’s the case I think that would be a sure fire way to piss the general public off.  

 

No Tonka! Hesi was starting a new thread from my comments on another  thread. Maybe Hesi or Pete could paste it on this thread for general  debate and ideas while there is no racing .

Cheers

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1 hour ago, Tonkatime said:

Are you talking about racing while we are on lock down?

If that’s the case I think that would be a sure fire way to piss the general public off.  

 

Yes, just putting it out there, in the event this goes on a while, and people start getting cabin fever, and putting a case for it.

As you say the perception by the general public would be a hard one

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6 hours ago, Hesi said:

Yes, just putting it out there, in the event this goes on a while, and people start getting cabin fever, and putting a case for it.

As you say the perception by the general public would be a hard one

You can't be serious? Has to be an absolute impossibility while we are under COVID-19 ALERT LEVEL 4 restrictions.

Edited by curious
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Well lets hope we can drop back soon to Level 3, which may allow racing to resume behind closed doors.

I guess my point is, that unlike many other sports and industries, it is one that can be funded almost 100% by online wagering

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12 minutes ago, Hesi said:

Well lets hope we can drop back soon to Level 3, which may allow racing to resume behind closed doors.

I guess my point is, that unlike many other sports and industries, it is one that can be funded almost 100% by online wagering

With NZ racing not making the TAB any money, they are likely doing as well now than they would be if NZ was racing. And NZ racing isn't having to pay out any stake money.

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Hopefully this will give the TAB and people at RITA a huge shake up, if they can resume racing, such that they become a lot more of a proactive customer orientated organisation.

From what I have seen, for example, the Aus TAB is a lot more proactive, perhaps if things are outsourced, they should takeover running the show here

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1 hour ago, Hesi said:

Just a note, if racing could resume here by May, then that is approx 10 million in stakemoney that has not been put into the industry

But,  given that there is NO money,  to my simple brain,  all that means is that the hole is 10 mill shallower than it otherwise would have been.

And - why do people who are supposed to know all things TAB-related,  keep intoning that ' the Govt needs the tax that racing pays,  so will act to get racing up and going '....

My understanding is that the funding goes pretty much the other way.

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There are lots of questions to be answered  by Petone and it looks like they need to use these next 6 months to sort out their house! Also to put the lifes of the people working within  the industry and the sport itself as the number one priority. 

First question for debate with the experienced and knowledgeable  people on here is...

Who actually owns the TAB? And what is the best way forward and the future for the sport in the next few years? 

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48 minutes ago, Freda said:

But,  given that there is NO money,  to my simple brain,  all that means is that the hole is 10 mill shallower than it otherwise would have been.

 

Given that the Minister's instruction was/is to pay that money to the codes through to June when the new entity takes over, then unless something has changed, the codes should have it and be pretty flush, since none is going out in stakes.

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31 minutes ago, Midnight Caller said:

Who actually owns the TAB? And what is the best way forward and the future for the sport in the next few years? 

My view is the NZ government effectively own the TAB. They simply have it set up as the vehicle to fund racing (under current legislation).

Racing will dispute that, but that dispute will not result in anything - since the Racing Act 2003 defined the assets of what was the TAB being shifted in their entirety to the state enacted body, NZRB. And therefore, the TAB is owned by the government, and all the TAB related assets (and liabilities) are the governments.

Any changes to the way the government helps fund racing will of course meet with opposition should that change be majorly against the welfare of the racing codes.

Edited by mardigras
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55 minutes ago, Freda said:

And - why do people who are supposed to know all things TAB-related,  keep intoning that ' the Govt needs the tax that racing pays,  so will act to get racing up and going '....

My understanding is that the funding goes pretty much the other way.

I think that argument is based on the fact that workers in the industry all pay income tax. That's  a fallacious argument of course because it assumes that if there were no racing industry, those workers would not be employed and paying taxes elsewhere.

Air New Zealand is  in the process of cutting staff and staffing costs by 30%. Don't think anyone would argue that the taxpayer should stump up the money to keep those staff employed there.

Edited by curious
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26 minutes ago, mardigras said:

My view is the NZ government effectively own the TAB. They simply have it set up as the vehicle to fund racing (under current legislation).

Racing will dispute that, but that dispute will not result in anything - since the Racing Act 2003 defined the assets of what was the TAB being shifted in their entirety to the state enacted body, NZRB. And therefore, the TAB is owned by the government, and all the TAB related assets (and liabilities) are the governments.

Any changes to the way the government helps fund racing will of course meet with opposition should that change be majorly against the welfare of the racing codes.

Probably better that the NZ Government own the TAB, that way, they are in a position to bail it out, with some pretty strict provisos.

Racing depends on it, to fund most of their industry, so it could not be allowed to fail

This all just makes it so hard to understand, why the gravy train, the excesses, the poor successive leaderships have not been addressed for so many years.  

 

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11 minutes ago, Hesi said:

Probably better that the NZ Government own the TAB, that way, they are in a position to bail it out, with some pretty strict provisos.

Racing depends on it, to fund most of their industry, so it could not be allowed to fail

This all just makes it so hard to understand, why the gravy train, the excesses, the poor successive leaderships have not been addressed for so many years.  

 

Victoria, NSW for example, do not have government owned betting operators. They realised they shouldn't be in that business and sold the rights to do things like tote operations. Those governments then received the revenue from those deals - and the operators formed deals with the industry to pay them. Vic for example, received a fee of $410m (up front) from TABCORP for allowing them to operate the tote exclusively in Victoria - and that was for a period of 12 years only. Nearly $35m per year to the government (plus income tax payable to federal gov). Hardly surprising Vic government might be inclined to give a little back for racing infrastructure etc at various times.

Edited by mardigras
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16 minutes ago, mardigras said:

Victoria, NSW for example, do not have government owned betting operators. They realised they shouldn't be in that business and sold the rights to do things like tote operations. Those governments then received the revenue from those deals - and the operators formed deals with the industry to pay them. Vic for example, received a fee of $410m (up front) from TABCORP for allowing them to operate the tote exclusively in Victoria - and that was for a period of 12 years only. Nearly $35m per year to the government (plus income tax payable to federal gov). Hardly surprising Vic government might be inclined to give a little back for racing infrastructure etc at various times.

Were there performance clauses in the deals

In NZ we have this chicken and egg situation whereby poor quality racing(among other things) leads to low betting returns, and there is no direct accountability between NZRB and NZTR, other than a loosely worded Racing Act.

To be honest, the whole set up in NZ is a mess, and what you have described above sounds simple, straightforward and effective

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15 minutes ago, Hesi said:

Were there performance clauses in the deals

In NZ we have this chicken and egg situation whereby poor quality racing(among other things) leads to low betting returns, and there is no direct accountability between NZRB and NZTR, other than a loosely worded Racing Act.

To be honest, the whole set up in NZ is a mess, and what you have described above sounds simple, straightforward and effective

There were criteria around funding levels and also, they formed a joint venture with the racing industry, to ensure certain portions of profit were attributed/shared with the industry. We could easily have done the same - the issue now is that the "value" of what the TAB is as a going concern, is reducing year by year. So the level of revenue the government could get from selling it off, is far less now than it was. Especially when they would be required to grandfather in certain levels of funding for some years to ensure continuity of the industry. That may not leave an organisation a heck of a lot in the profit tank.

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1 hour ago, curious said:

Given that the Minister's instruction was/is to pay that money to the codes through to June when the new entity takes over, then unless something has changed, the codes should have it and be pretty flush, since none is going out in stakes.

If they have been paid as per directed, yes, they should. 

But, were the codes paid?.

I mean, if the cupboard is bare, how do you feed the troops?

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