curious Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 12 minutes ago, Maximus said: if your horse that 'can run 1400m' isnt a product of a Karaka sale it wont be running for a slice of 4.5m. We must remember that these innovations are all about NZB/TAB/Entain and the growth of their bloodstock business and raceday wagering. MM Rubbish. All NZ breds are eligible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 In my opinion, this is what will happen. 3 year old racing in Nov/Dec/Jan is predominantly 1600m. Then in Feb, 2000/2100m races become available such as Avondale and Waikato Guineas and Sir Tristram Fillies Classic. So, you are sitting there with a well performed 1600m horse, not sure if it will go over 2000m and then up to 2400m. What do you do, try it over 2000m, if it runs well or averagely, you then have the choice to continue on to the Derby, or change tack and drop back to 1500m for the slot race, not ideal. Alternatively you could say, we know we have a horse that runs well over 1600m, let's go for the much richer slot race over 1500m. The horse has done well in the 1.5 mil KM 3-year-old race, we will find a lead up race in Feb over 1400/1600m to top it off for the 1500m slot race. Which option are connections going to go with. If 50% go with the second option, that is going to have a big impact on the quality of the Avondale and Waikato Guineas, but most importantly the Derby, which as someone has said, the G1 status is already under pressure 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 hours ago, curious said: Rubbish. All NZ breds are eligible. thanks for that MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanturk Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 2 hours ago, Hesi said: In my opinion, this is what will happen. 3 year old racing in Nov/Dec/Jan is predominantly 1600m. Then in Feb, 2000/2100m races become available such as Avondale and Waikato Guineas and Sir Tristram Fillies Classic. So, you are sitting there with a well performed 1600m horse, not sure if it will go over 2000m and then up to 2400m. What do you do, try it over 2000m, if it runs well or averagely, you then have the choice to continue on to the Derby, or change tack and drop back to 1500m for the slot race, not ideal. Alternatively you could say, we know we have a horse that runs well over 1600m, let's go for the much richer slot race over 1500m. The horse has done well in the 1.5 mil KM 3-year-old race, we will find a lead up race in Feb over 1400/1600m to top it off for the 1500m slot race. Which option are connections going to go with. If 50% go with the second option, that is going to have a big impact on the quality of the Avondale and Waikato Guineas, but most importantly the Derby, which as someone has said, the G1 status is already under pressure But it's a slot race, so you don't choose to race in it, the slot holders do? Is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 4 hours ago, Maximus said: if your horse that 'can run 1400m' isnt a product of a Karaka sale it wont be running for a slice of 4.5m. We must remember that these innovations are all about NZB/TAB/Entain and the growth of their bloodstock business and raceday wagering. MM Yes it can. As long as it is NZ bred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 2 hours ago, vanturk said: But it's a slot race, so you don't choose to race in it, the slot holders do? Is that correct? Not sure how it all works, someone will explain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 The Everest has a gimmicky format, in which 12 entities chip in $700,000 to own a position, or “slot”, in the race - which adds up to $8.4 million. Like choosing a dance partner, they then nominate a horse to fill their slot, and seek to complete a deal with that horse's owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 So I think you can safely assume the best 1400-1600m 3 year olds will be present. Not only that, but there is likely to be a lot of inducements and arm twisting to go the slot route as opposed to the Guineas/Derby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 A Guineas winner would surely become a prime target for slot holders wouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngakonui grass Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 6 hours ago, Hesi said: In my opinion, this is what will happen. 3 year old racing in Nov/Dec/Jan is predominantly 1600m. Then in Feb, 2000/2100m races become available such as Avondale and Waikato Guineas and Sir Tristram Fillies Classic. So, you are sitting there with a well performed 1600m horse, not sure if it will go over 2000m and then up to 2400m. What do you do, try it over 2000m, if it runs well or averagely, you then have the choice to continue on to the Derby, or change tack and drop back to 1500m for the slot race, not ideal. Alternatively you could say, we know we have a horse that runs well over 1600m, let's go for the much richer slot race over 1500m. The horse has done well in the 1.5 mil KM 3-year-old race, we will find a lead up race in Feb over 1400/1600m to top it off for the 1500m slot race. Which option are connections going to go with. If 50% go with the second option, that is going to have a big impact on the quality of the Avondale and Waikato Guineas, but most importantly the Derby, which as someone has said, the G1 status is already under pressure I would say that most years only half a dozen horses see out the Derby Distance so imo there is going to be trouble ahead for the 2 Guineas races as well as the Derby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 4 minutes ago, curious said: A Guineas winner would surely become a prime target for slot holders wouldn't it? Yes, but up until then the guineas races will have been run over 1600m, I am referring to the longer guineas races run in Feb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 1 minute ago, ngakonui grass said: I would say that most years only half a dozen horses see out the Derby Distance so imo there is going to be trouble ahead for the 2 Guineas races as well as the Derby. Yep, and I guess that will be the line that slot holders will attack connections with 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 Actually when you look at it in more detail, it gets quite complicated. Prize money for winning NZB Kiwi is 1.2 mil, notwithstanding up to 600K in bonuses Prize money for the Derby winner is 600K. So a slot holder is going to have to offer a versatile, Jimmy Choux type of 3-year-old much more than a 600K inducement to run for them, or they might as well take the Derby route. Certainly muddy's the water 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 i dont think it muddies the water(s) at all..it gives owners and trainers options for their 3yos. Winning a guineas or a Derby aint the be-all and end-all in thoroughbred racing anymore, the 'classic/traditional' pathway to fame and fortune is gone. MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buller Rep Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Because of “sharing” the winning purse you don’t necessarily get the best horses A different route can give you more $ and prestige. For example look at Imperatriz dodging The Everest! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWJ Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 On 1/23/2024 at 6:07 PM, Maximus said: i dont think it muddies the water(s) at all..it gives owners and trainers options for their 3yos. Winning a guineas or a Derby aint the be-all and end-all in thoroughbred racing anymore, the 'classic/traditional' pathway to fame and fortune is gone. MM I disagree Max. The other consideration not mentioned is that in the case of a colt, the Derby (or an Gr1 Guineas) endows the winner with a Group One success. The Kiwi (initially anyway) will not even give them black type. Studs and stallion owners and consequently broodmare owners put huge stock in that Gr1 status. For geldings it doesn’t matter if course. Look how many geldings have won the Everest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 These meetings, which appear motivated by the breeding industry, do appear to be at cross purposes for the reasons you have mentioned. I guess there will be a push to make them G1's by the breeders. Not sure what the criteria are, or whether sweepstake style races or races with limitations such as where the horses are bred will ever be able to become G1, regardless of how much money they offer. Someone will know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 According to the documentation the Kiwi will carry black type - Restricted Listed as are the Karaka Millions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 5 hours ago, curious said: According to the documentation the Kiwi will carry black type - Restricted Listed as are the Karaka Millions. But what are the criteria to achieve G1 status. For a start any race that has restrictions based on where the horse was bought must rule it out, as G1 racing is about the best racing the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 13 minutes ago, Hesi said: But what are the criteria to achieve G1 status. For a start any race that has restrictions based on where the horse was bought must rule it out, as G1 racing is about the best racing the best Yes. It can't ever have Group status, let alone G1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWJ Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 3 hours ago, Hesi said: But what are the criteria to achieve G1 status. For a start any race that has restrictions based on where the horse was bought must rule it out, as G1 racing is about the best racing the best You are correct Hesi. As Curious says, as it stands, these races can never be Gr1 status. The Kiwi may even take 2 to 4 years to be even accepted as a Listed Restricted black type race. These things do not happen overnight. Restricting entrants to graduates from a particular sale or company ensure that nothing above Listed status will ever be bestowed on them. I know many in the breeding industry are not fond of them. It is a little crazy that breeders appear to support them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 8 minutes ago, PWJ said: You are correct Hesi. As Curious says, as it stands, these races can never be Gr1 status. The Kiwi may even take 2 to 4 years to be even accepted as a Listed Restricted black type race. These things do not happen overnight. Restricting entrants to graduates from a particular sale or company ensure that nothing above Listed status will ever be bestowed on them. I know many in the breeding industry are not fond of them. It is a little crazy that breeders appear to support them. Well yes that is the crazy thing but is it the breeders who are supporting them. In the NZ case, this whole concept of Karaka Million and Slot races is being pushed by NZ Bloodstock, who are not breeders, but make their money out of breeders selling bloodstock. It would appear that racing in NZ is being manipulated by NZB, and the negatives of that have been pointed out, and we have yet to see a business case that highlights the positives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesi Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 9 minutes ago, PWJ said: You are correct Hesi. As Curious says, as it stands, these races can never be Gr1 status. The Kiwi may even take 2 to 4 years to be even accepted as a Listed Restricted black type race. These things do not happen overnight. Restricting entrants to graduates from a particular sale or company ensure that nothing above Listed status will ever be bestowed on them. I know many in the breeding industry are not fond of them. It is a little crazy that breeders appear to support them. The 4-year-old million dollar race is not restricted to Karaka sales graduates. Will that ever become a G1?. The field is very good, because we had a vintage 3-year-old crop. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 8 minutes ago, Hesi said: The 4-year-old million dollar race is not restricted to Karaka sales graduates. Will that ever become a G1?. The field is very good, because we had a vintage 3-year-old crop. It could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWJ Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 57 minutes ago, Hesi said: The 4-year-old million dollar race is not restricted to Karaka sales graduates. Will that ever become a G1?. The field is very good, because we had a vintage 3-year-old crop. No it will not based on the current regulations imposed by the IRPAC and I quote: Following are criteria that IRPAC uses when determining placement of countries or races in the International Cataloguing Standards and International Statistics publication. Other relevant information and statistics brought forward by regional committees represented on IRPAC are also considered. These criteria are subject to, and in conjunction with, individual Ground Rules adopted by each region. Applications for inclusion will be considered from Racing Authorities which are members of the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities or any of its Regional Federations (see below) and where the relevant Federation and regional Pattern Committee has endorsed such application. Races must be restricted to horses as defined in Article 12 or 13 of the International Agreement on Breeding, Racing and Wagering. Part I - Countries must have a Committee or Industry Group to overview and maintain the Group/Graded races in its country/region. - No Group/Graded races should have any geographically-based conditions of entry in regard to the place of the horse’s birth, training or ownership. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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