All things Covid and Political discussion .........Be Kind

[craigos1]

13 minutes ago, Maximus said:

Max never purports to express any views other than his own. In summary:

• Labour has not handled the Covid response well THIS YEAR (ie Delta). Slow vax rollout, MIQ breaches that let Delta in in the first place, lack of trained ICU personnel/equipment etc)
• Multiple issues on which they campaigned have worsened - housing, child poverty, etc
• Their 'mandate to govern' is being exploited but will bite them big time in 2023 if National and/or ACT get organised
• There is likely to be to be a 'hard landing' from this crisis. Another 2 years of this inflationary environment and all hell will be let loose -if banks get the jitters over mortgage repayments and start foreclosing on the over-committed, the house of cards may fall; if the crisis happens in the next 12-18 months, Labour will gone. And Cindy (plus Clarke and Neve)w ill be crying her eyes out from the safety of some UN outpost eg Geneva/NYC/Beijing.

 

I'm pleased Maximus that you have your own views,

When is the National Party having there ticker - tape parade in Bedrock🤑

[Hesi]

How can anyone think the Nats could run this country at the moment

They have no leader, or no prospective leader on the horizon

They have lost so many experienced MP's

They have self destructed in the last 18 months, with a series of comical events, not so comical if you are them

It's not good for the country, because a strong opposition is vital to democracy

They only have themselves to blame, it has been a total shambles.

And that's coming from a former Nat party supporter.

 

[pete]

Well we've all had a good say on this and quite remarkably have not resorted to personal abuse.

It's fair to say that neither side of the argument is likely to convince the other side to switch camps.

It's OK to disagree, in fact it's the sign of a healthy democracy.

P.S Barry likes to wind Hesi up so please don't start posting any 'what abouts'

[pete]

21 minutes ago, barryb said:

Great post Pete & yes I love winding Hesi up, compared to the other sites he got booted off hes relatively untouched here. I would hate him to think that everyone likes him here.

He's actually a decent bloke but has turned up twice at my place without any beer and then asked me if I have any beers in the fridge.

Make of that what you will.

[pete]

5 minutes ago, pete said:

He's actually a decent bloke but has turned up twice at my place without any beer and then asked me if I have any beers in the fridge.

Make of that what you will.

Actually he'd probably see that as some sort of tax.

[mardigras]

8 hours ago, craigos1 said:

Too many on here are using the reverse racism card.

I'm not sure where you are reading that.

[Hesi]

12 hours ago, barryb said:

I cant read this anymore Pete, you are firing me up terribly.

I have had complete gutsful of this lockdown shit, my hair looks like fucking sonic the hegdehog & I have stacked on about 5 kg.

Covid wont bloody get me, obesity will.

Been working on this non contact, click and collect hair cutting machine.  A few teething problems, like losing ears.

[Globederby19]

7 hours ago, pete said:

He's actually a decent bloke but has turned up twice at my place without any beer and then asked me if I have any beers in the fridge.

Make of that what you will.

He must be half Maori and half Scottish. One half wants to get pissed , the other half doesn't want to pay for it.

[Globederby19]

Sounds like Daniel Andrews has been served court papers for Treason, by some prominent Lawyers in Victoria.

And he is trying to push through emergency powers again before it all turns to custard. 

Can we get them sent to Chairman Mao here  as well. ?

[Globederby19]

Looks like Chairman Mao (Jacinda)has made the front of TIME magazine, for all the wrong reasons as failing at just about everything she has done and leaving failed projects that will take generations to pay back.

Sound familiar.

And Daniel Andrews new emergency powers have been passed in the lower house but now have to go to the upper house to be ratified. God help Victoria if it passes that. 

[Hesi]

On 11/6/2021 at 2:13 AM, barryb said:

Sounds like the Labour Party till Winston gave them the election.

Just because the alternative is shit doesn’t excuse the terrible lot currently in there. 

Absolutely, I just wanted you to admit the Nats are crap and have zero answers

[Hesi]

I note Haka Tourism Group general manager Eve Lawrence, and Russell Coutts, lamenting the situation in NZ, saying most other places in the world have got back to normal.

Well, the dropping of restrictions seem to be coming back to bite a few on the bum, particularly in Europe, where many countries are experiencing a big increase in infections, in some cases record numbers. Countries such as Germany, Austria, France.  Concern being expressed about the health facilities not being able to cope and talk of re-introducing restrictions.

These countries all have vaccination rates in the 60-70% range, so have 'gone back to normality' with substantially lower rates than what we are aiming at

[mardigras]

On 10/18/2021 at 9:59 AM, mardigras said:

I think it works both ways.

The non vaccinated are also being held to ransom, irrespective of the view of whether a person should get vaccinated or not. I've not got a lot of issues with being held to ransom, which is why I tend to prefer a user pays system. 

A user pays system largely fixes it. We are too much focused on social welfare and it wouldn't happen here.

If a person gets sick, they pay to get treatment. You want/need an ICU bed, pay for it. That would trickle down to health care plans - just like travel insurance. 

You get asked various health questions, it changes your premium. If you are not vaccinated, your premium goes up.

if you don't have health cover, you pay the full price. If you don't have the money, bad luck. Puts less strain on available health services, and if you need more, you are receiving funding due to the user pays aspect.

That brings the accountability of people's actions out. You make the choices, you pay for the outcomes of those choices. 

Just like other forms of insurance - you can self insure if you don't believe the chance of requiring health care is high in relation to the cost. And therefore on the basis you need the care, you know you will have to pay for it.

Might sound harsh, but the world is changing. 

Well, although I haven't fact checked this, but I understand this is to be the case. Singapore is essentially doing what I suggested above.

Non-vaccinated will have to pay for hospital care. It has to be allowed to be a choice - but like anything, the choice may have repercussions.

Unvaccinated COVID-19 patients to pay their own medical bills from Dec 8: Singapore | World News | Inshorts

[Hesi]

Yahoo News Singapore

Unvaccinated by choice? COVID patients must pay for own medical bills from 8 Dec

Nicholas Yong

·Assistant News Editor

Tue, 9 November 2021, 1:24 am·2-min read

 

 

SINGAPORE — From 8 December, COVID-19 patients who are unvaccinated by choice must pay for their bills incurred at hospitals and COVID treatment facilities, said the multi-ministry task force on COVID-19 (MTF) on Monday (8 November). 

Speaking at a virtual media briefing, Health Minister and MTF co-chair Ong Ye Kung alluded to a parliamentary sitting where he told the House that hospital charges will be imposed on COVID patients who are eligible but choose not to be vaccinated. 

Billing will still be based on the current subsidy framework, subject to Medisave use and MediShield Life claims, so the cost will still be "highly supported and highly subsidised", said Ong.

"Hospitals really much prefer not to have to bill these patients at all. But we have to send this important signal to urge everyone to get vaccinated if you are eligible."

Those who are partially vaccinated will not be charged until 31 December. COVID-19 medical bills for those who are ineligible for vaccination will still be fully paid for by the government, such as children under 12 or medically ineligible individuals. 

Meanwhile, from 15 November, medically ineligible individuals can visit any general practitioner clinic or public or private healthcare institution to be certified as medically ineligible, subject to meeting the revised criteria.

They will be issued with a standard paper memo, which should be presented along with a government-issued photo identification card to be exempted from vaccination-differentiated measures.

The Ministry of Health is also working with GovTech to reflect the medical ineligibility status in individuals’ TraceTogether app, so that they are able to pass through check-in systems at affected venues without needing to show the paper memo.

"While we have extended a concession to those who are medically ineligible to be able to dine-in, enter malls and participate in activities where (vaccination-differentiated measures are) required, they remain unvaccinated and their risk of becoming infected with COVID-19 and/or becoming severely ill remains real and very high," said the MOH.

"We strongly encourage these individuals to minimise such activities and to use this concession judiciously."

Stay in the know on-the-go: Join Yahoo Singapore's Telegram channel at http://t.me/YahooSingapore

[Hesi]

Washington Post(today)

People ‘unvaccinated by choice’ in Singapore no longer can receive free covid-19 treatment

 

Masked pedestrians in Singapore on Nov. 3. (Caroline Chia/Reuters)

By Miriam Berger

Today at 2:23 p.m. EST

 

Eighty-five percent of people in Singapore eligible for coronavirus vaccines are fully vaccinated, and 18 percent have received booster shots.

But the Singaporean government said Monday that it will no longer cover the medical costs of people “unvaccinated by choice,” who make up the bulk of remaining new covid-19 cases and hospitalizations in the city-state.

 

“Currently, unvaccinated persons make up a sizable majority of those who require intensive inpatient care, and disproportionately contribute to the strain on our health care resources,” the Ministry of Health said in a statement Monday.

“Covid-19 patients who are unvaccinated by choice may still tap on regular health care financing arrangements to pay for their bills where applicable,” the ministry added.

Singapore invokes ‘fake news’ law in push against anti-vaccine website

The government now foots the bill for any Singaporean citizen, permanent resident and holder of a long-term work pass who is sick with covid-19, unless they tested positive shortly after returning from overseas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

“This was to avoid financial considerations adding to public uncertainty and concern when covid-19 was an emergent and unfamiliar disease,” the Health Ministry said in its statement.

“Until the covid-19 situation is more stable,” it added, it will continue to cover related medical costs for those who are vaccinated, as well as for those still not eligible: children 12 and under and people with certain medical conditions. Partially vaccinated people in Singapore will be covered until Dec. 31.

Asia is slowly reopening to travelers. Here’s where you can go.

Singapore is considered to have one of the world’s the best health-care systems. A 2017 study in the leading medical journal the Lancet found that Singapore ranked first among 188 countries in efforts to meet health-related sustainable development goals set by the United Nations for 2030.

 

 

The Singaporean model, however, depends heavily on privatized medical services, meaning that the unvaccinated may already have coverage if they become sick with covid-19. In the United States, for example, about one-third of health-care spending is private, while in Singapore it is the opposite, according to an analysis by the New York Times.

Singapore looks to ease coronavirus restrictions on migrant laborers after confining them for over a year

Moreover, workers in Singapore are mandated to put a portion of their salaries away in health savings accounts, which employees are also required to contribute to based on varying criteria.

 

Under this system, bills for the unvaccinated will still be “highly supported and highly subsidized,” Health Minister Ong Ye Kung told a news conference Monday, Yahoo News reported.

 

“Hospitals really much prefer not to have to bill these patients at all,” Ong said. “But we have to send this important signal to urge everyone to get vaccinated if you are eligible.”

Singapore recorded some 91,000 new coronavirus infections over the past 28 days, 98.7 percent of which were asymptomatic or mild cases, according to the Health Ministry.

As of Nov. 7, 1,725 people were hospitalized with the virus. Of those, according to the Health Ministry, 301 have required oxygen, 62 are under close monitoring in the intensive care unit and 67 are critically ill and intubated. That has put Singapore’s current ICU use rate at 68.5 percent.

 

“While this is still manageable by stretching our health care manpower, we must not let down our guard and must avoid a resurgence of cases that could once again threaten to overwhelm our health care system,” the Health Ministry said Monday.

Early in the pandemic, Singapore relied on extensive surveillance, contact tracing and strict movement restrictions to keep virus cases low. The heavily surveilled city-state has since begun easing some virus-related restrictions.

[mardigras]

On 10/19/2021 at 11:20 AM, PWJ said:

Mardy, this is the best opinion I have heard yet on this subject. Like you, I believe that people should have a choice but burdening the health system because of your choice is not fair on those who have taken the option to vaccinate and most likely not be a burden to the health system.

I would compare it to smoking. There is a heavy tax smokers pay on cigarettes/tobacco which in theory gives the government extra $$$ to pay for the effects of it on the health system (whether it does get spent there is another matter).

If you have more accidents on the road, you pay a higher insurance premium - same thinking.

I would give it 6-12 months and most governments will realise the
'user pays" system will need to be invoked. Medical insurers will also be looking very closely at your vaccinated status by then.

Hey @PWJPeter, did you see that Singapore are introducing a user pays type scenario for providing hospital care for those that make various choices. Seems it can be done, and as you say, governments will eventually come to the realisation, that if the strategy is vaccination, then you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

To me, it's the fastest way out of things like lockdown. People have had ample opportunity to make their choice, now open up and be prepared to back your choice financially.

Edited November 9, 2021 by mardigras

[Hesi]

Costs in the US for preventable hospitalisations, ie unvaccinated in June/July/Aug, estimated at 5.7 billion

[Hesi]

Picked up this online, about health insurance in the US

Health insurers are a different story. A slew of state and federal regulations in the last three decades have heavily restricted their ability to use health factors in issuing or pricing polices. In 1996, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act began prohibiting the use of health status in any group health insurance policy. And the Affordable Care Act, passed in 2014, prevents insurers from pricing plans according to health – with one exception: smoking status.

Here is the full link

https://theconversation.com/can-health-insurance-companies-charge-the-unvaccinated-higher-premiums-what-about-life-insurers-5-questions-answered-165959

[mardigras]

5 minutes ago, Hesi said:

Picked up this online, about health insurance in the US

Health insurers are a different story. A slew of state and federal regulations in the last three decades have heavily restricted their ability to use health factors in issuing or pricing polices. In 1996, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act began prohibiting the use of health status in any group health insurance policy. And the Affordable Care Act, passed in 2014, prevents insurers from pricing plans according to health – with one exception: smoking status.

Here is the full link

https://theconversation.com/can-health-insurance-companies-charge-the-unvaccinated-higher-premiums-what-about-life-insurers-5-questions-answered-165959

I imagine that largely relates to corporate health care programs as opposed to an individual trying to take out a health insurance policy. I've worked for US firms with health cover and premiums were largely unaffected by health status of the individual.

[Freda]

I've been reading this thread with interest.

A question I have to ask - how would beneficiaries fare under a 'user pays' system of health care?

A number of those of my acquaintance will never be anything other than 'consumers' of the state.  Accommodation supplements, subsidies to cover ACC costs [ how that is justified when said consumer does nothing bar lie in bed, to get injured is beyond me ] cover for trips to hospital by ambulance for a sore arm, extra help for food parcels...health insurance  would never happen.   The state would still have to cough up for them, and denying them access to hospital care is not likely to be acceptable.

[mardigras]

23 minutes ago, Freda said:

I've been reading this thread with interest.

A question I have to ask - how would beneficiaries fare under a 'user pays' system of health care?

A number of those of my acquaintance will never be anything other than 'consumers' of the state.  Accommodation supplements, subsidies to cover ACC costs [ how that is justified when said consumer does nothing bar lie in bed, to get injured is beyond me ] cover for trips to hospital by ambulance for a sore arm, extra help for food parcels...health insurance  would never happen.   The state would still have to cough up for them, and denying them access to hospital care is not likely to be acceptable.

I'd expect that depending on their beneficiary status, they may not pay anything. But I would go down the path of announcing any beneficiary requiring treatment, will have their benefit payments reduced by $x from their periodic benefit to pay for their treatment.

The state does a poor job managing beneficiaries, and no doubt this would also fall into the too hard basket. But there needs to be greater accountability for the choices people make. 

[pete]

14 minutes ago, barryb said:

ANALYSIS: Is Waikato crossing over into a Covid-19 twilight zone? | Stuff.co.nz

Feck me dead, this sort of article is why people are getting fired up, its ok for that little jumped up prick Michael Baker as hes fecking down in Dunedin.

Is this loon on another planet talking about elimination still being pursued in the Waikato, what a bloody drongo. Its in the underbelly of society you total nut, those fellas don't give 2 fecking hoots about the rest of us & don't follow rules or regulations now. Thats why its spreading across the country, stop fucking punishing those in society who have had a complete gutsfull of this lockdown shit & can see its a complete lost cause.

Stop giving loons in the South Island hope that its not reaching town there anytime soon, some time this week its going to be in Welly & then before Nov is over its across parts of the South Island.

Its getting very tiring listening to sector/religious/racial groups with only there own interests at heart, the poor garden variety Kiwi is law abiding, gets vaccinated and still gets kicked in the guts.

In all honesty if you havent been vaccinated by now then you are at your own risk.

Yep Baker is hanging on to some perceived relevance by continuing to push elimination.

The horse has bolted and it's heading south. Anyone who doesn't believe that is living in a fantasy world.

If those who seem to think they have the power to tell the rest of us what do had an ounce of intelligence they'd scrap the borders and just let things take their course.

Unfortunately when you're blinded by ideology and an unshakeable sense of your own infallibility the results are predictable.

This couldn't be a worse mess.

[Freda]

13 hours ago, barryb said:

ANALYSIS: Is Waikato crossing over into a Covid-19 twilight zone? | Stuff.co.nz

Feck me dead, this sort of article is why people are getting fired up, its ok for that little jumped up prick Michael Baker as hes fecking down in Dunedin.

Is this loon on another planet talking about elimination still being pursued in the Waikato, what a bloody drongo. Its in the underbelly of society you total nut, those fellas don't give 2 fecking hoots about the rest of us & don't follow rules or regulations now. Thats why its spreading across the country, stop fucking punishing those in society who have had a complete gutsfull of this lockdown shit & can see its a complete lost cause.

Stop giving loons in the South Island hope that its not reaching town there anytime soon, some time this week its going to be in Welly & then before Nov is over its across parts of the South Island.

Its getting very tiring listening to sector/religious/racial groups with only there own interests at heart, the poor garden variety Kiwi is law abiding, gets vaccinated and still gets kicked in the guts.

In all honesty if you havent been vaccinated by now then you are at your own risk.

Stop calling us loons..I know some very good people in the Sth Island....

[pete]

Just now, barryb said:

Yep me too Pam, unfortunately a good number for some reason have a silly chip on there shoulder when it comes to North Islanders & esp Aucklanders. Many of them live in a deluded world that Covid is not coming and that those in Auckland should remain shutdown so they can enjoy relative freedoms. 

Think back to what it was like in mid August Pam, thats how long some of us have had to endure this shit through not fault other than Auckland/Waikato are the gateways to NZ for returning Kiwis. 

It's only the peculiarity of Auckland's geography, being an isthmus, that allowed them to get away with these borders.

You couldn't do the same in Christchurch because there are too many entry/exit points.

They can't keep it closed much longer for a number of reasons. My wife helps out voluntarily every day with preparing meals for the police on the border and it's no secret that they're burnt out and have had enough.

[Hesi]

I think the people of this country, have done pretty well, in that we will get pretty close to 90% double vaxxed before opening up a lot more.  That is despite the conspiracy theory loons and the anti vax brigade(why would you ever want health professionals and people teaching our children, that don't believe in the overwhelming science????).

I note in an increasing number of European countries(Germany, Austria, Netherlands), are getting a resurgence of record new daily cases, threatening to swamp their health systems, and are therefore re-introducing restrictions.  These countries only have mid to late 60% double vax rates, so when they 'went back to normal' 2-3 months ago, would have been less than 60%(as an estimate only)