All things Covid and Political discussion .........Be Kind

[mardigras]

10 minutes ago, Maximus said:

Surely all people are potential carriers of new variants. And Omicron may prove to be much less damaging than Delta; or it may lead to further mutations, one or more of which might wipe out millions. This is Mother Nature doing her thing. But you can't blame Governments globally for making decisions to minimise the risk of the most virulent known forms of Coronvirus. You just dont know what you just dont know.

But who said vaccinated people spread the virus less - even known variants like Delta? Where's your data that states a vaccinated person is less likely to get Covid and less likely to pass it on? I haven't seen anything reliable.

Edited December 2, 2021 by mardigras

[Globederby19]

30 minutes ago, mardigras said:

that states a vaccinated person is less likely to get Covid and less likely to pass it on? I haven't seen anything reliable.

There isn't any. The viral load is just as high in a vaccinated person and can be transmitted.

I told myself not to post here any more, so Im out.

[mardigras]

13 minutes ago, Globederby19 said:

There isn't any. The viral load is just as high in a vaccinated person and can be transmitted.

I told myself not to post here any more, so Im out.

I don't think your point of view is causing any issues, but posting or not is up to you. 

I'd agree there isn't any data supporting the supposed idea that a vaccinated person is less risk to anyone else. I do support the data that the likelihood of becoming severely ill when vaccinated and with covid, is less. They are two different things.

[Maximus]

so what you're saying mardigras is that being vaccinated reduces the risk of serious illness to yourself but not to people you come into contact with: hence, if they are (like you) double jabbed, they may still get the virus from you but are also not likely to get seriously ill. Therefore vaccination of all eligible age groups is a good idea, unless there is a specific compelling reason for not doing so (compromised immunity or whatever.

Did I get that right or wrong?

MM

[craigos1]

Does anyone have a Covid Aid Kit?!!

I do as of yesterday!

My wife saw something on TV about if you have to self isolate at home you should have one of these.

So I bought one , a Pulse Oximeter.

 

[mardigras]

3 minutes ago, Maximus said:

so what you're saying mardigras is that being vaccinated reduces the risk of serious illness to yourself but not to people you come into contact with: hence, if they are (like you) double jabbed, they may still get the virus from you but are also not likely to get seriously ill. Therefore vaccination of all eligible age groups is a good idea, unless there is a specific compelling reason for not doing so (compromised immunity or whatever.

Did I get that right or wrong?

MM

Therefore vaccination of all eligible age groups is a good idea - I expect most would think so - but what is wrong with that being individual choice?

if it was individual choice and no vaccine mandates, we would have

• similar numbers vaccinated
• people in jobs that are currently ousted from jobs
• compliance costs of business to assess entry eligibility removed
• no segregation or us/them causing massive division in the country

and I would suggest very little difference to our health system.

 

[Maximus]

it IS individual choice ...the mandates are the divisive issue

[mardigras]

27 minutes ago, Maximus said:

it IS individual choice ...the mandates are the divisive issue

The problem is the mandates, among other things. They are using the mandates to coerce people (effectively trying to make it as difficult as possible for them to stick to their choice). It isn't necessary.

[Maximus]

12 hours ago, barryb said:

I have one Craig, it’s a wine fridge by Baumatic, 54 bottles in there will see me through 14 days.  I have taken the precaution of shifting it closer to the bedroom door to not put anyone at risk.  I do also have a wifi mesh system as well so I think I will be perfectly fine provided Countdown can get more dunny paper on the shelves from there strike action.

barryb, Max is a tad concerned that you will last only 14 days with those 54 bottles...so I'm offering my services to drop in and keep you company, just in case anything should go wrong. Happy to bring my own wine glass and some Moet to get us started.

MM

[Maximus]

Having just read the news of $644M for ICU upgrades

What I find even unbelievable is that 20 months after closing our borders they have announced money to accelerate ICU resources. It simply beggars belief…should have been the first thing they did!

MM

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Maximus

[curious]

19 hours ago, mardigras said:

I'd agree there isn't any data supporting the supposed idea that a vaccinated person is less risk to anyone else. I do support the data that the likelihood of becoming severely ill when vaccinated and with covid, is less. They are two different things.

I'd agree too though my hypothesis is that it may reduce the length of time transmissibility is present and thus reduce transmissibility somewhat. On the other hand, the vaccinated who are infected are less likely to have symptoms, less likely to get tested and more likely to unknowingly be walking around spreading the virus.

The only decent study I have seen does show an effect on transmission but it is small and short-lived and may not override the additional risk the vaccinated pose that I mentioned above.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

[mardigras]

16 minutes ago, curious said:

I'd agree too though my hypothesis is that it may reduce the length of time transmissibility is present and thus reduce transmissibility somewhat. On the other hand, the vaccinated who are infected are less likely to have symptoms, less likely to get tested and more likely to unknowingly be walking around spreading the virus.

The only decent study I have seen does show an effect on transmission but it is small and short-lived and may not override the additional risk the vaccinated pose that I mentioned above.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

Yes, I'm no expert in this field, but I thought it somewhat logical that the vaccine may assist with dealing with the virus that you have caught, and able to transmit. Therefore reducing the risk to a typical person of severe illness, but still spreading the virus.

To me, that makes the mandates pretty useless as a control measure when considering the impacts to society(segregation)/jobs/compliance costs etc.

We'll be less likely to know the vaccinated numbers that have the virus because of the reasons you stated. So reports of vaccinated people with the virus compared to unvaccinated with the virus is somewhat useless data.

[curious]

Yes. The original NZ serology study based on now year old data from alpha suggested we had only picked up 50% of actual cases. I suspect if that is updated now we'll be picking up significantly less which effectively makes the whole thing unmanageable in the ways it has been managed up to now.

[curious]

1 hour ago, mardigras said:

Yes, I'm no expert in this field, but I thought it somewhat logical that the vaccine may assist with dealing with the virus that you have caught, and able to transmit. Therefore reducing the risk to a typical person of severe illness, but still spreading the virus.

To me, that makes the mandates pretty useless as a control measure when considering the impacts to society(segregation)/jobs/compliance costs etc.

We'll be less likely to know the vaccinated numbers that have the virus because of the reasons you stated. So reports of vaccinated people with the virus compared to unvaccinated with the virus is somewhat useless data.

Might already be a sign of this but I'd predict that we will have a growing number of positive waste water tests in areas where there are no known cases.

[Maximus]

Max has a great idea...why don't we make Covid testing mandatory?

[mardigras]

4 hours ago, Maximus said:

Max has a great idea...why don't we make Covid testing mandatory?

Why?

[ngakonui grass]

Do you need a vaccine passport to eat at a foodcourt that is in the middle of a mall.?

No passport needed to get into the mall and the foodcourt has no defined walls.

[ngakonui grass]

I'M hoping that these roadblocks up north can be used to prevent criminals from the North entering the rest of NZ.

[Maximus]

6 hours ago, ngakonui grass said:

I'M hoping that these roadblocks up north can be used to prevent criminals from the North entering the rest of NZ.

mate, with Hone's Friendly Traffic Wardens running the show there'll be no issues...a backhander here, a payoff to the gang bros there..sweeeettt azz cuz cuz

[Maximus]

So as the Great Exodus from Jafaland ramps up, Godzone country reaches the 90% double-jabbed mark. In the same week the Gummit puffs out its Little chest and announces $600M to upgrade ICU beds nationwide. They're so damn clever these beds will be ready by June 2022. FFS !!!

Is Max missing something here...shouldn't this expenditure have been allocated 18 months ago, in March/April 2020  - as we watched over-run hospitals in Italy, Spain etc laying out their dead in the aisles?

We know the Pfizer jab doesn't stop anyone from getting Covid or transmitting the virus, but it's almost certain to stop you getting it so badly you need ICU care. In effect the expenditure is to help the system cope with the 10% UNVAXED who are most likely to need hospital care and/or ICU...yes. there is a long-term gain of having the extra ICU beds (eg if other variants are more virulent than Delta).

But really...how incompetent can you be to wait this long to upgrade ICUs. While at the same time not letting in from overseas ICU-trained nurses unless they've done time in MIQ -as thousands of Joe Blows self-isolate at home.

It beggars belief.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Maximus

[mardigras]

On 12/9/2021 at 10:17 AM, ngakonui grass said:

I'M hoping that these roadblocks up north can be used to prevent criminals from the North entering the rest of NZ.

These natural road blocks near Wellington are preventing criminals from heading north out of Wellington.

[mardigras]

Concerns raised about having to share public transport with unvaccinated people (msn.com)

This is the type of reporting I find largely mis-information.

Being on a bus with vaccinated people only, doesn't prevent the individual from getting the virus. It's absurd thinking. All this does is create segregation/divisive thinking. 

[Double R]

14 minutes ago, mardigras said:

Concerns raised about having to share public transport with unvaccinated people (msn.com)

This is the type of reporting I find largely mis-information.

Being on a bus with vaccinated people only, doesn't prevent the individual from getting the virus. It's absurd thinking. All this does is create segregation/divisive thinking. 

They way I look at it Mardi is, unvaccinated people should be more worried about me, as a fully vaccinated person, and possibly being a carrier.

[mardigras]

2 minutes ago, Double R said:

They way I look at it Mardi is, unvaccinated people should be more worried about me, as a fully vaccinated person, and possibly being a carrier.

Probably - the issue being that thinking a vaccinated person is safe around vaccinated people is a misconception. It's the stuff the non-supporters use in their arguments - yet the vaccine isn't about stopping infection as much as aiming to prevent hospitalisation/death to some degree.

I've read that very argument many times - claiming the vaccine is useless because it doesn't prevent spreading. It's a bit like saying seat belts are useless because they don't prevent crashes. The vaccine doesn't have to prevent spreading and seats belts aren't designed to prevent crashes.

[Double R]

46 minutes ago, mardigras said:

Probably - the issue being that thinking a vaccinated person is safe around vaccinated people is a misconception. It's the stuff the non-supporters use in their arguments - yet the vaccine isn't about stopping infection as much as aiming to prevent hospitalisation/death to some degree.

I've read that very argument many times - claiming the vaccine is useless because it doesn't prevent spreading. It's a bit like saying seat belts are useless because they don't prevent crashes. The vaccine doesn't have to prevent spreading and seats belts aren't designed to prevent crashes.

Totally agree Mardi.